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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | I think the RAW is quite clear that its 1D you can use for specializations. |
Yes...
R&E: Chapter 1, p.28
| Quote: |
Specializations
You can spend 1D of your character's beginning skill dice to get three specializations; add 1D to each specialization. |
I do agree that using the word "only" would make the intended meaning more clear and not open for misinterpretation. But for RAW to intend the the misinterpretation, it would have to say "Your character gets three specializations for each 1D that you spend of your character's beginning skill dice..." The absence of phrasing involving the word "each" makes the meaning default to the "only" meaning.
The word "can" means "are able to" here. So the RAW sentence means, "You are able to spend 1D of your character's beginning skill dice to get three specializations..." Just because it does not say the word "only", you still can't assume that you "are able to" spend 2D, 3D or anything else but the 1D that it says you can. It means you are able to spend 1D.
| ZzaphodD wrote: | | If people play that way is another matter... Again, the RAW are not important when it comes to specific games, only when discussing them. |
Exactly.
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Last edited by Whill on Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Raven Redstar
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Joined: 10 Mar 2009
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Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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I think the best way to get at what West End Games was getting at with their rules is to use their new release of the system:
| Quote: |
Skills are more specific applications of an attribute. For example, the skill dodge is a more specific use of your character’s Agility. Characters learn them through instruction or experience.
Skills are areas of expertise that are not necessarily common to every living creature. Some creatures simply don’t have the capacity to learn certain skills.
All skills beneath a given attribute begin at that attribute’s die code.
To highlight skills in which the character has trained or has some experience, add pips or dice to the base attribute value. As with attributes, when creating your character you can either put whole dice in each skill, or you can give each a mixture of whole dice and pips. Remember that each die equals three pips.
Example: You’ve chosen your attribute scores, including putting 2D+1 in Technical. If you wanted her to be a little better in the demolitions skill, you could add one pip to the base attribute to get a demolitions skill score of 2D+2. If you decided to add two pips to the base attribute, the demolitions score becomes 3D.
You can also specialize in skills. Specializations reflect a greater familiarity in a particular area covered by a base skill. One skill die equals three specialization dice. Of course, one specialization die still equals three pips.
You don’t need to have any extra dice in the base skill in order to take a specialization in that skill, but when you give your character specializations in that manner, they are treated as separate skills. If you give your character specializations in base skills he already has, those specializations are considered bonuses to the base skill when attempting tasks of that type.
Once you’ve chosen at least one specialization and put one or two pips or dice in it, you have to use the remaining specialization dice and pips to either purchase more pips in the same specialization or purchase one or more pips in other specializations.
You roll the specialization’s die code only when you use the specific item or knowledge reflected by the specialization. Otherwise, you roll the base skill (or attribute if you didn’t put additional dice in the full skill).
Example: If your character’s Technical is 2D+2 and her demolitions is 3D, you could give her a demolitions specialization of vehicles of +1 (which means that, when she’s attempting to blow up planetary vehicles, she rolls three dice and adds 1 to the total). You would then have two specialization dice and two specialization pips to place among other specializations. With these, you could further improve her demolitions: vehicles specialization, or you could pick one or more other specializations in the same or other base skills.
You decide that with one other specialization pip, you’ll give your character vehicle repair: ground vehicles, but you won’t take the full vehicle repair skill for her. This allows your character to have vehicle repair: ground vehicles at 3D (add 1 to the die code of the base attribute, Technical, which is 2D+2). Thus, when your character attempts to fix a hovercraft, you roll 3D, but if she tries to make adjustments to a boat, you only rely on the attribute’s score, which is 2D+2. |
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Sun Oct 10, 2010 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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So, specializations aside, the answer to the original question as stated in the rulebook page 29:
| Quote: | A character may have an advanced skill listed on the template. If your character meets the "prerequisite skills" requirement, you may put beginning skill dice in the advanced skill. (Check the skill's description in "Attributes and
Skills" to find the prerequisite skills; you will probably have to put some of your beginning skill dice in the prerequisite skills.)
Example: The prerequisite for the advanced skill of (A) medicine is first aid 5D. If your character has at least 5D in first aid, you can put 1D or 2D of your beginning skill dice in (A) medicine. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Having reviewed page 28 and the examples and having listen to your arguments, I now believe that your interpretation of Specialization (spend only 1D for 1D specialization in three skills) and ZzaphodD's interpretation (only spend full D in skills) is most likely what the designers intended by their somewhat ambiguous language on page 28. |
So in the end you, ZzaphodD and I (among others) agree on what is most likely the designers intentions on these things anyway.
Raven, thanks for posting the D6 material. I think it is appropriate to mention that while some things can definitely be viewed as clarifications of the previous versions of the system (such as Star Wars), others are actual changes that resulted from the natural evolution of the system over the years.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:52 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
garhkal, you quoted me but I never said anything about people owing debts for starting skills. Were you making some point to me? |
I might have gotten you mixed up with someone else..
| Bren wrote: |
Personally I think getting a medical degree at character creation makes far more sense that acquiring one during play. In play would be difficult for most active PCs. They are just too busy to spend time on the required classes and coursework. I have one PC whose background was med student. He did add 1D to his medicine, but that was after (a) using the skill as the ship's medic for a year of game time and (b) taking a few months of non-play game time studying with real physican NPCs. Going from no medicine to 2D or more during play seems unlikely for most PCs that we have playing. |
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I see (A)s as being something earned. Much like how jedis have Padwawan and Knight, with a knight, you won;t see templates starting as one. They have to advance to it/earn it as part of game play.
| Bren wrote: |
The PC is still not as good at medicine as the off the shelf 2-1B droid that another player bought for her freighter's med bay. Players, especially human players are unlikely to be as good at medicine as an average med droid. And guess what we see in the movies, most "doctors" are actually specialized droids. |
Which to me is indication that perhaps people cannot start off with it, as they are not as good at it as droids.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Mon Oct 11, 2010 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Also, you can only divide full D:s when creating characters. |
Hmm, I meant that you can only divide (your pool of availible skill dice as) full D:s when creating characters.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Hmm, I meant that you can only divide (your pool of availible skill dice as) full D:s when creating characters. |
Your meaning was clear to me. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Oct 12, 2010 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Raven Redstar wrote: | | I think the best way to get at what West End Games was getting at with their rules is to use their new release of the system... |
I agree that it may help to look at the next version. However, when trying to understand version N of a set of rules, it makes as much sense to look at version N-1 as to look at version N+1. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Raven Redstar wrote: | | I think the best way to get at what West End Games was getting at with their rules is to use their new release of the system... |
I agree that it may help to look at the next version. However, when trying to understand version N of a set of rules, it makes as much sense to look at version N-1 as to look at version N+1. |
In this case the N-1 version clearly says the same thing so the point in arguing this is kind of moot. 
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:37 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | In this case the N-1 version clearly says the same thing so the point in arguing this is kind of moot. |
I'll have to take your word for it as I don't have my 2nd Edition rules with me. I wasn't desirous of arguing the 2E revised rules, but I wondered whether the 2nd edition rules were slightly different, since neither no one in my group had interpreted the rules the way that you and Whill read them. Generally, in our group, someone spots stuff like that, so I wondered if we were just reading the 2E revised rules on autopilot due to our prior familiarity with character creation under the 2nd edition rules.
As I have said, the reading that you and Whill made now appears to me to be the correct interpretation. So I don't see a need to look at either the 2nd Edition (version N-1) or the D6 Space (version N+1) rules to understand the 2nd Edition Revised and Expanded (version N). |
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