Darkside point discussion

[Mamatried]

Should there be differnt rules for getting and atinong for dark side points based on the character's religion and culture?

An example is that both the sith and the jedi are religions and not the only dark/light religions at that.
their religions tennants determine their light/dark actions like any other relegion would.

we know that eating pork is a sin to some religions, doing this in a sense gives a dark side point, at the same across the street a family following another religions have a pork dinner and does not commit any sins and break any tennants and as such does not get any dark side points, in the purely religious sense.

so I am more in clined to argue that even within the various religions there were people with various roles and these toles determing their "dark/Light" actions.

lets look at a monastary we have the unarmed monks writing books and praying and farming the fields, and then we have the templars, or the warrior monks, who are trained to kill, who kills and who goes to war who commits "dark deeds".

so to me a jedi cousilor, a role concered more with diplomacy would imo have a lower threshold for gaining any form of "dark" points or taint from more or less any combat even self defense at times.

on the other hand a guardian who is more warrior centric would imo not get as easily a dark taint, meaning that where the counsilor goes "too far" and injures or kills when he maybe could have ran will be seen "darker in deed" than the jedi sentinel, the warrior sent to resolve conflicts and for the saber diplomacy and the direct actions, who through his role injures, wounds or kills, even if he could run, that is not his role he is a warrior.

and then we have other religions like the jenseraai and ziersons sha the bendu and others.

I am all for giving DSP for killing maiming and force lighting people willy neilly but I am also one who is somehwat pragmatic as to the force, seeing morivation and culture and of course religious tennants as the major determing factor and often more than the action itself.

Killing through the force to save a life, this is IMO balance, you destroy to allow creation.

will you take the risk of letting the person trying to kill your child or a child simply accpts defeats and slunters away, or is it better to make sure the threat is neutralized, even if this a kill.

so to me a jedi will earn DSPs differntly than a Jenseraai will, however both can fall to the darkside at 6 points, nobody needs more or less threshold, but things like this can explain how some jedi in particular simply falls to the dark side after a single action or for avanging in the moment and the battle their fallen master, a natural instict seen everywhere in nature but usually deemed unnatural in religions that have levels of "control" be it behviour or thought.

Lets take the act of killing with the force, an automatic DSP on most if not all powers allowing this, and a flawor text stating a "a jedi sing this...." gets a DSP a Jedi.......

so I would argue that a zeison sha, a culture forcing them to fight for survival on a hostile world of extrmems, environment and beast and enemies, and they will through their life fall to the daark side and be foreve lost to utter evil if they survibe 7 times by killing.

it will ne natural for someone from a survivalist culture to kill the sentry and safely escape, while it will be more natrual for a more non survvalist or non warrior like culture to disbale/stun the sentry and escape.

lets look to commados in war, they kill the sentry, they can not stun the sentry rsking the sentry to wake up and raise alarm or attcak from behind.....over the course of a war they may haver to kill more than 6 such sentries, that for some cultures and situations and even some black or white religuons will deem murder and a dark act, while other will deem as simply war.

I kill that sentry by stealth and using my force choke, it is silent and no alarm goes off, I get a DSP, for 1 kill, or I do something else, shoot him risking otheres to hear and kill a section of solders in a shoothout, I now kille 5 not one but didn't get a dsp.

so I am very much in favor of keeping the threshhold to 6 DSP to fall to the dark side, but have differenses in who gains a DSP and for what depending on religion and culture and more.

where the jedi get a DSP, the Sith does not, the Zeison Sha Might and the jenseraai can not gain from that action at all......things like that

[CRMcNeill]

The DSP mechanic is not intended to function as a general measurement of morality, and is not suited to do so. It is purely a measurement of a character's fall to the Dark Side of the Force. That's all. If we're going strictly by the RAW, the only way for non-Force Sensitive characters to earn a DSP is by spending a FP while committing an evil act.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[Mamatried]

[KageRyu]

Religion and culture have nothing to do with Dark Side Points in Star Wars.
If you are playing a non Force User, the only way to get one under RAW is by spending a Force Point in anger... though GM discretion may see them awarded for particularly heinous or vicious acts.
Dark Side Points are a function of the Force in RAW and how a Force User uses the force and behaves. As a Force User is more sensitive to the ebb and flow of the Force they are more open to both the light and the dark, and if not careful may find themselves on a road to corruption. They are also what separates the Heroes (i.e. Players) from the Villains in the Star Wars setting. The Force rules represent good and evil - period. This is not translated to or altered by religious or cultural views in the terms of the force. What a religion or culture may allow could still be evil in terms of the force and thus the dark side... so while a character with such religious or cultural views may have done no wrong from the perspective of his people, he still earns a DSP.

Even in reality, committing atrocities, whether allowed by religion or culture or not, makes one no less evil.

I personally feel Such debates are not really in the spirit of Star Wars.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra

[Whill]

Here we go again. Yet another DSP thread. Your last one was posted late June with replies through last week.

I agree with KageRyu here. 'Cultural relativism' in the DSP is the wrong direction to go for Star Wars (and open for abuse by a player who may be tempted to design a 'murderhoboism' religion to govern his character's DSPs). You can have different Force traditions with different ways to access the Force, different difficulties for powers, and even different powers in the same PC group, but what earns them a DSP should be identical for each PC. Any campaign should have moral absolutism when it comes to DSPs. The GM is and should be the ultimate judge for that campaign.

There also seems to be some disagreement among GMs over over what the purpose of DSPs even are. It seems clear to me that DSP rules are mostly player behavioral restrictions. Yes, the criteria for giving DSPs in RAW isn't perfect and should be tweaked by the GM, but being equal to all PCs regardless of character background is being fair to all players. IMO, if you look at DSPs as strictly a character rule you've failed as a GM to see the full human element of roleplaying.
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Star Wars D6 Damage

[Mamatried]

[KageRyu]

[Mamatried]

[KageRyu]

What you are not understanding, and I have tried to explain, is that point of view is irrelevant. You are too focused on a character's moral point of view or cultural point of view when they have nothing to do with the Dark Side of the force from a perspective of Game Mechanics.

In the Star Wars universe - The Force exists. This is an Immutable fact of reality. The Dark Side of the Force exists as well, and is another Immutable Fact of Reality. Certain behavior and actions Feed the Dark Side of the Force, make it stronger - and this too is an immutable fact of the SW reality. Force User share a special connection to the Force, and it flows through them - which makes them more susceptible to it's influences, good or bad. When a Force User engages in behavior or actions that fuel the dark side of the Force, or worse channel it directly, it leaves a stain on them in the same way that muddy water flowing through cloth leaves a stain - and this is also an immutable fact of reality established firmly in the SW universe repeatedly.

In SW D6 - Dark Side Points represent the stain left on those who have been touched by the Dark Side of the Force through direct action or by inviting it in. This is the Game Mechanic to represent the mysterious context of the Force in SW.

It has nothing to do with your point of view. It has nothing to do with your morals. While a characters personal morals or cultural views may be fine with hime throwing Dark Side Lightning to execute poor people in the streets that he is offended by - he still gets DSP for it. By his society or religion he may be in the moral right or even heralded as a hero - but he still gets DSP and in the grand scheme of SW and D6 he is EVIL Period!

It is no different to argue that if a my societal or religious upbringing taught me that time was all an illusion and only the weak minded are bound by it - I should be able to go back in time at will. Nope... Cultural and Religious views do not change immutable rules of the universe, sorry.

This is far from making "All religions and cultures the same".
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra

[Whill]

[Mamatried]

So this all came down a discussion over force power, and logic and how that should trumph any mechanics

I had a player who creatively enough wanted to be a Teepo jedi, and after readinf up on them we found that we had to review the threshold on -some- not all of the powers that give an automatic DSP.

Force Shot
Source: Star Wars Gamer 9,
page 92
Sense Difficulty: Moderate
This power may be kept up.
Required Powers: Life detection, life sense,
sense Force.
Warning: Anyone who uses this power to
harm a helpless character receives a Dark Side
Point.
Effect: This power is used to increase a
character’s accuracy with missile weapons
against hidden or concealed targets. If successful,
the Force-user may add his sense dice to his
ranged attack rolls against an organic/living
target that is either fully or partially concealed, be
it behind a wall, through smoke, or in darkness
or shadow. At least some portion of the target
must be concealed by some degree of cover
to be effective. This power is called on at the
start of a battle, and remains up until the Jedi
is stunned, wounded, or worse. Any Jedi who
has been stunned or wounded may attempt to
activate the power again.

The Teepo Paladins were a small group of Jedi Knights who followed the teachings of Teepo
and believed that the use of blasters and other weapons in addition to lightsabers was acceptable.
Because of this, the Teepos were censured by the Jedi Council an unspecified number of years prior
to the Great Jedi Purge. The Teepos wore masks and other sensory-depriving devices when they engaged in
combat as a means of increasing their connection with the Force.
Teepo Paladins who held more radical views eventually formed their own faction, the Gray Paladins.

Now lets look at these guys. They do learn lightsaber combat as they use blasters in -addtion-
however becuse balsters is the main differntiating factor here we can assume they do not normally
train in any advance forms of lightsaber combat and as such most likely will not have the power as part of their
tennants, but they are in fact jedi.

They further use senory depraving masks, I am sure sight is a sense and as such they will now be figting blindly
and of course be trained in blind fighting and sense powers, like sense soroundings and more.
now if we exclude lightsaber combat force power, but keep the "melee" skill then these guys have no actual means
of compensating, to actually use the balster as a jedi uses his lightsbaer, but this is their tennants, this what
makes this jedi branch different.

Enchant weapon 8not really existing) is perhaps a power they would use, however it does not cover enough to be a replacement for lightsaber
combat power, which these guys do not need and thus most likely do not learn.

the closest power to come close to be a blaster-version of lightsaber combat is the above force shot.
this gives and automatic dark side point on use, always.
now given that the rules are based on the original trilogy and the Dark/Light opposite found there, the sith and the jedi
then the rules as written makes sense, however when adding in EU these borders are being more and more whiped away
or greyed out if you will.

this is what in part what I mean with some differences in what gives and automatic DPS and what does not.
the above power is an automatic DSP, but it is also the only power with blaster use that is close to the lightsaber combat
power.

so I suppose these jedi are dark, becuse of the mechanics then?
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Teepo_Paladins

[KageRyu]

I'm just going to say nope.
I do not feel like trying to correct all of the inaccuracies, especially regarding using Force Shot as a blaster version of Lightsaber Combat.

What I will say is this-
Without Exception - every single force power in any official WEG source I have seen that gives an automatic Dark Side Point for using it states somewhere in the Power that it involves channeling the dark side.

In Your games, if you want to allow murder-hoboing character to use dark side powers and not get DSP, that is up to you - but you are no longer running a Star Wars game in spirit.

I will also add, the Teepo Paladins are EU, non-cannon, and came after the WEG SWD6 went out of print. Perhaps they were ostracized by the Jedi because they were courting the Dark Side?
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra

[KageRyu]

Also, if you want Teepo Paladins to play, try checking these forums, there are threads, and some ideas in the Jedi Handbook in the tools archive.

https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2627&sid=65ce9251f6316bce2329f38edfb9df10

https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4139

I will say again though, trying to use a EU, fan created Jedi Offshoot that is non-cannon to justify changing DSP rules just does not track in my book.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra

[CRMcNeill]

Let's not forget...



The Force is a fictional energy field that exists in a fictional universe and behaves by fictional rules. The Force adheres to these rules regardless of whatever fictional tenets are practiced by the various fictional practitioners of fictional religions that inhabit this fictional setting.

Moral relativism is an unfortunate fact of our real world, in the sense that we can never know for certain which of our various belief structures is the true one, and must thus trust to faith that we've picked the right one. This is not the case in the SWU; the Force exists, and it has a Light and a Dark Side, and the details of this have been delved by the various practitioners of the setting's myriad Force traditions. Because of this, certain uses of the Force are "Light", while others are "Dark". This is a demonstrable fact of the setting, and persists regardless of whether or not two different users disagree as to whether a given act is acceptable. An action that earns a character a DSP is not "acceptable" just because said character is a Sith adept whose belief system allows them to do so; if they do it, they get a DSP. Period.

Just because religious traditions in the real world take different approaches and have different beliefs w/r/t what is sin and what is not does not mean that the same applies to Force traditions in the Star Wars Universe. To argue that it does ignores the ways in which reality and the fictional setting are different.

Thus, False Equivalence Fallacy.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[KageRyu]

@CRMcNiell,
Yes, very well said. It's what I was trying to say but didn't get the wording quite right.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra