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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10500
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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The conversation here reads a bit disjointed so I'll try to clarify things for readers (and potential new participants)...
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | But “highest skill goes first” eliminates the possibility of surprise attacks. |
"Highest skill goes first" is 1e, which was only necessary due to the game designer's devotion to initiativeless combat. But surprise wasn't eliminated in 1e. Surprised characters could not act at all in the first action segment of the round. A very similar surprise concept was kept through the evolution of the game to R&E – See below.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I’m more inclined to what Whill suggested elsewhere, stacking Perception with Dexterity. I’d also allow Mechanical in place of Dexterity for vehicle and starship, and possibly Knowledge for things like Tactics (although I’m not all that certain how the rules would work). |
Although Dexterity and Perception are the strongest factors in my derived Initiative stat, Tactics (or base Knowledge) is already a (smaller) factor in my system. Not that anyone else would do it how I do it. Just saying.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'm just not a fan of getting rid of actually having to roll Initiative, particularly in combination with things like Concurrent Action Penalties. The randomness of a character being able to win or lose Initiative in spite of a high or low Perception is part of the fun of table-top combat. |
I agree 100% with bolded sentiment expressed. But as has been discussed recently elsewhere, Concurrent Actions dilutes too much of that randomness for me, introducing a negative gameplay factor where, based on my experience, players would be constantly trying to beat the initiative system. But yeah, with Concurrent Actions it would be even more important to not lose the randomness of Initiative, so I agree with that too.
| MrNexx wrote: | | For surprise attacks, I'd use Perception v. Sneak or Hide... do you NOTICE that you're about to get 1 round of attacks on you. |
| garhkal wrote: | | That's what the surprise attack situation where someone's sneak skill, beats the target's search (If they are actively looking) or Per (if being passive) roll... If the attacker wins, they get a free attack. |
| MrNexx wrote: | | I use this only for the first round of a surprise attack; after the first round, then initiative takes over. If it's not a surprise attack, then initiative is normal. |
Nexx, that is close to R&E RAW, but as garhkal was getting at, in RAW surprise only affects the first actions, not the whole round. The ambushing side automatically wins initiative the first round, and any attacks made against the surprised side for the ambushers' first actions only cannot be reacted to (no dodging, etc.). It's an important distinction. I feel penalizing the surprised side for the entire round is too harsh, but of course you like all GMs should run your game how you see fit.
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MrNexx
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Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Nexx, that is close to R&E RAW, but as garhkal was getting at, in RAW surprise only affects the first actions, not the whole round. The ambushing side automatically wins initiative the first round, and any attacks made against the surprised side for the ambushers' first actions only cannot be reacted to (no dodging, etc.). It's an important distinction. I feel penalizing the surprised side for the entire round is too harsh, but of course you like all GMs should run your game how you see fit. |
TBH, I'm missing the distinction, unless someone is taking multiple actions in a round; if they're already behind cover, opening up with a blaster shot on someone who can't dodge is a pretty big benefit. Why would they want MAPs, unless they're stuck for them?
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps they wish to do more than just shoot? Say move as well, or for force users, activate a power while they are shooting?
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10500
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Right.
| MrNexx wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Nexx, that is close to R&E RAW, but as garhkal was getting at, in RAW surprise only affects the first actions, not the whole round. The ambushing side automatically wins initiative the first round, and any attacks made against the surprised side for the ambushers' first actions only cannot be reacted to (no dodging, etc.). It's an important distinction. I feel penalizing the surprised side for the entire round is too harsh, but of course you like all GMs should run your game how you see fit. |
TBH, I'm missing the distinction, unless someone is taking multiple actions in a round; if they're already behind cover, opening up with a blaster shot on someone who can't dodge is a pretty big benefit. Why would they want MAPs, unless they're stuck for them? |
Multiple actions are something both sides can do in RAW, even in a round where one side is surprised. The ambushers get the first action of the round, and if it is an attack then the surprised side can't dodge. But the ambushing side may not assume they will completely take out the opposition with the first actions so they may want to do more actions. Characters on the surprised side can still take actions the rest of the round, so if they don't happen to be hit in the ambush then they may want to want to run for cover, drag any wounded to safety, or attack back at their ambushers.
Since the surprised side can't react to ambushing attacks their perception rolls did not warn them were coming, extending that penalty to the entire round is too harsh because it would allow the ambushing side to make multiple attacks in hopes of taking the enemy completely out the first round. Attacker MAPs aren't as important when your opponent can't dodge.
And after the first attacks that they can't dodge, surprised characters would no longer be surprised, so should be able to react normally the rest of the round.
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