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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | Then why not let all force powers be instinctively activated.
Get shot, instinctively kick in ignore pain/resist stun.
get hit in melee/brawl, instinctively kick in enhance attribute-str.. |
Does it look like that is in any way, shape or form what I am proposing here?
For future reference, the Straw Man Argument has long been recognized as a rhetorical fallacy. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14359 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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It certainly seems that way by saying "Danger sense should be instinctual, not needing to get brought up, it just kicks in".. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | It certainly seems that way by saying "Danger sense should be instinctual, not needing to get brought up, it just kicks in".. |
And am I AT ALL suggesting that for each and every Force power? Please provide an actual quote where I said this.
 _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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JironGhrad Lieutenant Commander

Joined: 20 Jan 2016 Posts: 152
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | JironGhrad wrote: | I almost feel like it should be grown as a separate skill under the force power tree. |
I disagree. Sense is more than adequate for this purpose. After all, if a GM can declare a Perception or Search roll to see if the characters spot something they may not have been looking for, why should Sense not function similarly? It's not as though non-FS characters walk around with their eyes closed until they decide to make a Perception check, so why would a Jedi consciously shut himself off from the Force until he wanted something from it?
Now, if you wanted to come up with an Advanced Skill that allows a Force user to specialize in Danger Sense (or a sub-set of precognitive powers), then you'd pique my interest...
Quote: | I also sorta feel like the modifiers should maybe apply to the roll itself, rather than to the difficulty. |
I fail to see why this would be important. |
An advanced skill would certainly make sense. Part of my feeling on it, is that Sense as the core attribute doesn't convey (to my thinking) the widely varied ability of different Jedi.
Likewise the reason for having the modifiers on the roll, rather than the DC: the results you get ought to be based on the user's skill rather than how hard it is, given that sensing danger is sorta passive. So it's not like a jedi "can't" necessarily do it, but if the target of the danger is himself then boosting his roll against a fixed difficulty would result in more successes (statistically speaking) and that better reflects the passive nature of the power itself. |
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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)

Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10530 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | Does it look like that is in any way, shape or form what I am proposing here?
For future reference, the Straw Man Argument has long been recognized as a rhetorical fallacy. |
CRMcNeill wrote: | garhkal wrote: | It certainly seems that way by saying "Danger sense should be instinctual, not needing to get brought up, it just kicks in".. |
And am I AT ALL suggesting that for each and every Force power? |
We all have our knee jerk reactions to suggested house rules. (I tend to flip out when people suggest bringing Classes, Levels and Feats into D6.) This here is classic garhkal. Once you cross his lines he becomes very all or nothing.
garhkal wrote: | Then why not let all force powers be instinctively activated. |
Why not? Because not all powers should be instinctive. Now if a GM allowing certain powers to be instinctive still feels MAPs should apply based on whatever else the PC is doing that round, that's reasonable. The more the Jedi is focused on other things, the less instinct he has to be warned of danger by the Force. _________________ *
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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JironGhrad wrote: | An advanced skill would certainly make sense. Part of my feeling on it, is that Sense as the core attribute doesn't convey (to my thinking) the widely varied ability of different Jedi. |
But the C/S/A system is what we have. People have suggested alternatives over the years, but most would require a massive re-write of the existing Force system. Sense as a general skill covers all aspects of sensing the surrounding universe through the Force, with the various powers as aspects of it. This is still a learned power; only the specifics have changed.
My thinking on Force Advanced skills would be in addition to the existing system, using the existing Advanced Skill rules to stack with regular skills, so that a Jedi can improve his ability in a specific sub-set of the Force, such as Telekinesis, Healing, Precognition, Telepathy, etc.
Quote: | Likewise the reason for having the modifiers on the roll, rather than the DC: the results you get ought to be based on the user's skill rather than how hard it is, given that sensing danger is sorta passive. So it's not like a jedi "can't" necessarily do it, but if the target of the danger is himself then boosting his roll against a fixed difficulty would result in more successes (statistically speaking) and that better reflects the passive nature of the power itself. |
But the result is based on the user's skill level regardless of where the modifier is applied. Whether the modifier is used to increase the difficulty or to boost the character's skill, you still get the same probable result. If a Jedi rolls 4D Sense against Easy Difficulty, it makes no difference if you are adding 5 to the target difficulty or subtracting 5 from the Jedi's skill roll; the result will be the same. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:27 am Post subject: |
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From a mathematical perspective, where the net result determines the outcome, this is true.
However, sometimes the thing that "feels" right will differ from person to person or between scenarios.
For example, Anakin and Obi Wan were able to sense the attack on Padme while she slept, even though they were arguing with each other. But they could not sense the attack on Zam Wezzle. Is this because THEY were distracted or otherwise engaged, or is it because Jango's intentions are harder to detect than a droid's or a centipede's?
In such cases, shall we say that "because its Jango, you get a penalty to your sense roll." Or shall we say "because Jango is a more advanced opponent, the difficulty is higher."
In any case, I tend to rule that effects outside of the character affect the difficulty, while effects inherent to the character (or under the character's control) affect the roll.
Last edited by Naaman on Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14359 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:04 am Post subject: |
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Not specifically, but when you say "I firmly believe that Force use absolutely has an unconscious, instinctive element to it." it does seem like that would be the end game. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:19 am Post subject: |
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In my opinion, the sense skill has a passive component just like control does. While a force user's control skill enables him to resist other force users whether he "consciously" chooses to "bring up" his control skill or not, the sense skill allows the force user to sense things, just as if it were one of his 5 senses. It is always on, but it can be overwhelmed or even deceived.
I struggle to come up with a passive use for alter, but I don't think there necessarily needs to be one.
In any case, every single time we see the films portray "danger sense," the power is displayed as a sudden awareness to an imminent threat. Obi Wan, Ki Adi, Yoda, Qui-Gon, Anakin... its always something that "interrupts" the current activity on which the character was focused. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:26 am Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | Not specifically, but when you say "I firmly believe that Force use absolutely has an unconscious, instinctive element to it." it does seem like that would be the end game. |
So, I make a statement about a change to a single power based on in-universe evidence (multiple instances of Jedi sensing danger with no mention made of having made a conscious effort to detect it), and you make the illogical leap of assuming I'm referring to all Force powers? I really wish you would actually read my posts and respond to what I've actually written, not what you are afraid I'm going to write. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:42 am Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | From a mathematical perspective, where the net result determines the outcome, this is true.
However, sometimes the thing that "feels" right will differ from person to person or between scenarios.
For example, Anakin and Obi Wan were able to sense the attack on Padme while she slept, even though they were arguing with each other. But they could not sense the attack on Zam Wessel.. Is this because THEY were distracted or otherwise engaged, or is it because Jango's intentions are harder to detect than a droid's or a centipede's? |
I meant to include that the Jedi could sense when someone else is in danger, but modified by distance and relationship. By that standard, sensing that Padme was in danger would have a lower modifier since she had a closer relationship to Anakin's and Obi-wan than they did with Zam (a complete stranger). Add that to the fact that they were focused on questioning her (likely including an Affect Mind use) to stack MAPs in the difficulty, and becomes more plausible that they would miss the danger of an attack that wasn't directed at them.
Quote: | In any case, I tend to rule that effects outside of the character affect the difficulty, while effects inherent to the character (or under the character's control) affect the roll. |
That is my feel, as well. As such, since the danger is coming from outside the character, it is more appropriate to apply the modifier to the Difficulty, not the Sense roll. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | In my opinion, the sense skill has a passive component just like control does. While a force user's control skill enables him to resist other force users whether he "consciously" chooses to "bring up" his control skill or not, the sense skill allows the force user to sense things, just as if it were one of his 5 senses. It is always on, but it can be overwhelmed or even deceived. |
I'd like to see some basic modifiers for instances where the Force user's Sense can be overwhelmed; we certainly see it in the films (Obi-wan when Alderaan is destroyed).
I'm not so sure on Control having a passive component. Could you provide some examples of Control powers where you think that is appropriate?
The only other Sense power I've considered rewriting with a Passive component is Life Detection, using the RAW's 10 meter range as the basis for when a FS character would automatically notice the presence of another living being, then allowing them to consciously push that range out further as needed.
Quote: | I struggle to come up with a passive use for alter, but I don't think there necessarily needs to be one. |
I agree. Any Alter skill would be a conscious act. If Sense is automatically noticing a $20 bill on the sidewalk, Alter would still require the conscious choice to bend over and pick it up.
Quote: | In any case, every single time we see the films portray "danger sense," the power is displayed as a sudden awareness to an imminent threat. Obi Wan, Ki Adi, Yoda, Qui-Gon, Anakin... its always something that "interrupts" the current activity on which the character was focused. |
Exactly. IMO, if WEG had retained the SW license when the prequels were released, their Force system would've needed a major re-write. In fact, they actually did that anyway, if their D6 Space is what Star Wars 3rd Edition would've looked like. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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The control skill itself provides a passive defense against force powers. |
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JironGhrad Lieutenant Commander

Joined: 20 Jan 2016 Posts: 152
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Posted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | My thinking on Force Advanced skills would be in addition to the existing system, using the existing Advanced Skill rules to stack with regular skills, so that a Jedi can improve his ability in a specific sub-set of the Force, such as Telekinesis, Healing, Precognition, Telepathy, etc. |
But advanced skills are not designed to stack entirely. They only stack backward, but not in the cases where they're performing the primary focus of the skill. Droid repair benefits from advanced dice in droid engineering, but designing a new droid/component doesn't benefit from the repair dice.
What I suggest is making the power passive, with skill dice used to correctly interpret results AND if a character with the power is attacked in a round before his initiative, he gets to roll to interrupt that attack with his own action (with MAPs). |
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure the part about the inturruption is necessary...
After comabt starts, the opponent wouldn't have a chance to do anything before getting his arm choppped off.
You might simplify that portion of the idea by simply allowing the Jedi to use his sense skill as his initiative. |
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