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garhkal
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 Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | Back to the original question..
How long do you feel it would take for a pair of troopers to set up and be ready to fire an E-web if they didn't already have it set up, or had to disassemble it to move it?
A full round? 2 rounds? Longer? |
I would neex to look at the specifics of the EWeb's specs, but the typical time for a real life "heavy repeater" is 2-ish minutes (24 rounds) with a skilled crew being able to cut that down to around half. |
But unlike say a 50 cal, where you have a barrel, the receiver, the bolt and cover, the ammo box, belt and such to deal with all to set it up, with an E-web all we see is a weapon, a tripod, a power cable and a power generator. IMO that shouldn't take a full minute to set up let alone 2.
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cynanbloodbane
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Location: Cleveland, Go Tribe!
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| Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2015 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | Back to the original question..
How long do you feel it would take for a pair of troopers to set up and be ready to fire an E-web if they didn't already have it set up, or had to disassemble it to move it?
A full round? 2 rounds? Longer? |
I would neex to look at the specifics of the EWeb's specs, but the typical time for a real life "heavy repeater" is 2-ish minutes (24 rounds) with a skilled crew being able to cut that down to around half. |
But unlike say a 50 cal, where you have a barrel, the receiver, the bolt and cover, the ammo box, belt and such to deal with all to set it up, with an E-web all we see is a weapon, a tripod, a power cable and a power generator. IMO that shouldn't take a full minute to set up let alone 2. |
Next option: Re-watch ESB and time the setup.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | But unlike say a 50 cal, where you have a barrel, the receiver, the bolt and cover, the ammo box, belt and such to deal with all to set it up, with an E-web all we see is a weapon, a tripod, a power cable and a power generator. IMO that shouldn't take a full minute to set up let alone 2. |
I agree. For a gaming environment, I'd put it somewhere in the 4-6 rounds range. Cinematically speaking, this is enough time for characters to observe the gunners setting up the E-Web and give them a chance to interrupt the process before the cannon comes on line.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| cynanbloodbane wrote: |
Next option: Re-watch ESB and time the setup. |
My recollection of that scene, showed a rather quick set up, but the snow troopers were killed by the repeater that dropped down from the falcon, before they had a chance to finish it.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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Right: and when someone pushes it "just to see what will happen" or simply because they want to loot and plunder, then what? You have all these unconscious bodies in the street and noone to protect them. The tubes can'rlt distinguish between law enforcement and rioters, so there's another issue. Anytime force is used, there needs tobe someone accountable with judgement and responsibility. If not, then you wind up with chaos.
Unless we accept that murder and theft are legal under Palpatine, then we have to assume that there is some Imperial statute that holds local governments accountable for the well being of their citizens. The emperor, evil though he may be, is after a civilized order, not brutish, barnaric chaos. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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If everyone is stunned out, who is there to bring harm to them and loot them namaan?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Jun 25, 2015 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Not sure I agree with your view of the Emperor, Naaman. Just as an example, the Ghorman Massacre. Peaceful protestors block a landing pad, and a ship commanded by then-Captain Tarkin deliberately lands on them, killing over 40. No negative consequences for Tarkin, who is subsequently promoted to Moff, then becomes the first Grand Moff. That's just one example. I would argue that the Emperor actually subtly encouraged brutality against disent. And what was Alderaan if not a blatant disregard for the lives and wellbeing of his subjects? Any man willing to destroy an entire planet just to set an example for other worlds as part of a doctrine of fear isn't going to give a hoot about a few protestors being killed or looted while unconscious.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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If you look at wookieepedia, there are several imperial massacres listed.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Jun 26, 2015 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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Getting back on topic, I would suggest the following:
1) If a weapon is crew-served, like the E-Web, give it a set # of rounds required to set it up. The # would vary based on complexity, so something like a M2 would require 12 rounds, where something more "plug-and-play" like the E-Web would only require 6 (your numbers may vary).
2) Also assign each weapon a set-up difficulty based on how complex and time consuming the set-up process is.
3) Require the crew to make a Blaster / Blaster Artillery skill roll to set up the weapon (they can coordinate). Increase or decrease the set-up time by 1 round for every 3 points by which the skill roll beat / failed the roll (minimum of 50% reduction in time.
For example, suppose an E-Web has a 6 round set-up time at Moderate Difficulty. A crew of three coordinates to receive a +1D bonus to their sergeant's 6D Blaster skill, who proceeds to roll a 28, beating the Difficulty by 13 points. The set-up time is reduced by 1 round for every 3 points of success (13 / 3 = 4), so the set-up time is reduced by 4 rounds. Since the set-up time can not be reduced by more than 50%, and 50% of 6 rounds is 3 rounds, the set-up time is only reduced to 3 rounds, not 2.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:11 am Post subject: |
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That sounds workable.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | We should also keep in mind that, in both eras, the galactic government wasn't the only one there was. There were more than 50,000 planetary governments too. Even in the Empire, planetary governments had various levels of Imperial influence and control. Many planetary governments were not completely supplanted by evil Imperials, but were just forced to comply with and pay taxes to the Empire. They may still use stun riot control weapons because they may still care about their populations. It is an overly simplistic argument to say that (A) The Emperor is extremely evil, so therefore (B) It is silly for riot stun weapons to be used or even exist anywhere in his Galactic Empire.
Besides, mowing down masses of people in cold blood could quell a disquiet population, but it also could lead to more and worse rioting. The tactic of using mass stunning on a riot is not so silly to me. Authorities wouldn't have to "take care" of every individual in the crowd. They could go through a unconscious crowd and looks for specific trouble-making individuals (maybe known criminals that have a warrant out for their arrest, or suspected leaders of rebellious movements) to haul them while everyone else slept. The time the crowd is stunned could be the time that authorities gather and gain control. And not everyone would wake up at the exact same time, so the first few that did would no longer have such a big crowd to be a part of and may just flee or see to friends who were still stunned. Not all waking up at the same time to resume rioting would mean that the crowd would likely begin to lose its momentum and slowly disburse as they slowly begin to wake up, leaving a smaller and smaller crowd behind who wakes up later. And most everyone in the rioting crowd being unharmed would less likely generate a response of an even greater riot later, and even if it did, the stun riot weapon did its immediate job of stopping a riot. It can give authorities time to come up with a better strategy for maintaining control over the population. I can definitely even see Imperial governors preferring mass stunning for riot control to keep as much stability as possible. Out-of-control rioting makes local authorities look bad to the higher ups who don't want to have to come and step in unless they really have to. Mass genocide is not really a practical way to maintain the wealth needed to control an Empire anyway because it's mass reduction of tax-payers. I would imagine that in a large-scale tyranny like the Galactic Empire, there is always unrest somewhere or another, but Darth Vader and Grand Moff Tarkin can't be everywhere at once to deal with it. |
| Naaman wrote: | Anytime force is used, there needs tobe someone accountable with judgement and responsibility. If not, then you wind up with chaos.
Unless we accept that murder and theft are legal under Palpatine, then we have to assume that there is some Imperial statute that holds local governments accountable for the well being of their citizens. The emperor, evil though he may be, is after a civilized order, not brutish, barnaric chaos. |
| crmcneill wrote: | | Not sure I agree with your view of the Emperor, Naaman. Just as an example, the Ghorman Massacre. Peaceful protestors block a landing pad, and a ship commanded by then-Captain Tarkin deliberately lands on them, killing over 40. No negative consequences for Tarkin, who is subsequently promoted to Moff, then becomes the first Grand Moff. That's just one example. I would argue that the Emperor actually subtly encouraged brutality against disent. And what was Alderaan if not a blatant disregard for the lives and wellbeing of his subjects? Any man willing to destroy an entire planet just to set an example for other worlds as part of a doctrine of fear isn't going to give a hoot about a few protestors being killed or looted while unconscious. |
BTW, Tarkin was a special case. Tarkin was close pals with Palpatine since before his Chancellorship.
| garhkal wrote: | | If you look at wookieepedia, there are several imperial massacres listed. |
Yes, the Emperor is brutally evil, and there are genocides in the Empire, for sure. But these massacres did not happen everywhere all at once, and there was not a massacre every day. Genocides are examples, so it can't all be examples. There has to also less drastic and more common methods of suppressing uprisings (with the threat of that genocide you heard about last year in the next sector coming to your planet).
The Emperor can only disregard Imperial citizens as much as a farmer can disregard his livestock. If it were all genocides, there would be no one left to rule over. An Emperor needs an Empire. He can sacrifice select portions of the herd from time to time, but he can't just kill off the entire herd. That would be chaotic barbarism, not an orderly Empire. Palpatine's a tyrannical ruler, but not a mass murderer. His motivation is power.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | If everyone is stunned out, who is there to bring harm to them and loot them namaan? |
Anyone who walkd by later, of course.
Opportunity is one of the elements of criminal propensity.
Consider this: an imperial law enforcement agent is walking down the street and he sees someone assaulting a victim. What does he do? Lets say the attacker has a deadly weapon, to boot? Does the imperial cop just ignore it because the emperor is "evil" and does not care about the lives of his citizens? |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
But unlike say a 50 cal, where you have a barrel, the receiver, the bolt and cover, the ammo box, belt and such to deal with all to set it up, with an E-web all we see is a weapon, a tripod, a power cable and a power generator. IMO that shouldn't take a full minute to set up let alone 2. |
To set up a .50 cal all you do is install the receiver to the tripod, and install the barrel to the receiver. A crew that knows their gun well will get the headspace/timing right every time, but even still, checking the headsjipace/timing takes all of 20 seconds. The ammo crate/box adds perhaps 5 seconds to install and load a round.
Keep in mind, the two minutes Im talking about includes retrieving the tripod from the back of the truck, setting it up, dismounting the weapon from the turret (to include removing the barrel, though, for a well trained gunner with enough strength, this may mot be necessary), and installing it on the tripod, and reinstalling the barrel and checkinig the headspace/timing and finally loading the ammo. There is a lot of running around to take into account.
Now, if we are talking about a situation where all the pieces are just sitting in the place where the gun is to be set up, the the actual asembly takes probably 30-40 seconds. Zo if that is the scenario you are envisioning, then, I'd agree that even a real world deal can be set up much faster than two minutes. In fact, I might just allow the gun crew to make a skill check (vehicle blasters? Blaster artillary? Not sure which skill) to do it faster than whatever the "standard" time is according to the relevant military doctrine.
A light or medium machine gun for example can be completely disassembled and reassembled in less than one minute, and that's including a functions check at the end so setting one up (assuming the tripod was already where you wanted it) might take all of 30 seconds.
For what its worth, I would speculate that the eweb is MORE cumbersome than the M2 depending upon the size of the power generator. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Consider this: an imperial law enforcement agent is walking down the street and he sees someone assaulting a victim. What does he do? Lets say the attacker has a deadly weapon, to boot? Does the imperial cop just ignore it because the emperor is "evil" and does not care about the lives of his citizens? |
That's not really a good comparison. In your scenario, I think an Imperial LEO would likely intervene, but would be much more likely to resort to lethal force, not to mention being less concerned about the victim being caught in the crossfire.
In the case of a mass of rioters stunned by a riot gun, the rioters themselves would be considered criminals, and thus the Imperial LEOs would be more concerned with ending the riot as quickly as possible. Casualties would be of secondary concern at best. And if looters show up? Well, they are criminals, too, so just fire the riot gun a few more times.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Meh... I guess we just interpret the empire differently. No biggie. |
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