| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
 Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:47 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| crmcneill wrote: |
Why would they overheat? Their wing panels are supposed to be solar ionization collectors, not heat dissipation units. |
Because they are running engines and have no way of dissipating the heat they build up. Normally, vehicles do that either by interacting with another medium (air or water cooling), or by radiating the heat (which is slow). By shielding the TIE from the atmosphere, you trap all of it's waste heat.
| Quote: |
Solution: Ships are equipped with surround-sound speakers in the cockpits that generate the illusion of sound coming from the direction of ships in close sensor range. Call it an "ears-up" display, in that a pilot can hear the direction, distance, speed and aspect angle of other ships without having to check his displays. And if it's not in his cockpit, it can be mounted in his helmet. |
Except why do we hear it when we are watching the battles from a space view? No, we just have to chalk that one up to movie magic! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| atgxtg wrote: | | Because they are running engines and have no way of dissipating the heat they build up. Normally, vehicles do that either by interacting with another medium (air or water cooling), or by radiating the heat (which is slow). By shielding the TIE from the atmosphere, you trap all of it's waste heat. |
So we quote movie magic again and say that the shields are tuned to allow drive exhaust to pass through.
| Quote: | | Except why do we hear it when we are watching the battles from a space view? No, we just have to chalk that one up to movie magic! |
Well, if we're going to devolve into silliness, I'll just say that all the space scenes in all six films were shot by handi-cam from inside space pods equipped with ears-up displays and large transparisteel viewports.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | My only concern with the suggestion of TIEs not being equipped to handle cold temperatures is that all space capable ships in the SWU are considered to have navigation shields. IMO, having navigation shields is what allows otherwise unaerodynamic ships to operate in atmosphere, as well as protecting the ship from the heat of a high-speed entry. I would think that a navigation shield would also be capable of protecting a ship from bleeding off of heat in a cold atmosphere. You could rule it otherwise, but I don't see the need to do it just to support a house rule that TIEs can't operate in sub-zero atmospheric conditions. |
Read any of the novels. Ties usually DO suffer in airspace due to their unaerodynamic design.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | Read any of the novels. Ties usually DO suffer in airspace due to their unaerodynamic design. |
I'm aware of that; I mentioned it in a previous post. However, I am not aware of any official statement that TIE fighters are, in fact, negatively affected by atmospheric conditions, so it may just be fluff incorporated by various authors.
That being said, we've diverged from the point of this topic, so all I'm going to say is that, for my own purposes, I do not consider temperature conditions in atmosphere to be a factor in TIE operations. Reduced maneuverability in atmosphere is an official occurrence in the EU, so when combined with my house rule for Scale affecting Maneuverability, I feel it is sufficient to say that attempting to deploy TIEs underneath the area shield at Hoth would have just gotten a lot of TIEs blown up.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="crmcneill"] | atgxtg wrote: | | Because they are running engines and have no way of dissipating the heat they build up. Normally, vehicles do that either by interacting with another medium (air or water cooling), or by radiating the heat (which is slow). By shielding the TIE from the atmosphere, you trap all of it's waste heat. |
So we quote movie magic again and say that the shields are tuned to allow drive exhaust to pass through.
Fine, except that doesn't solve the problem of waste heat, that I mentionted. You see egnies waste mor ergy than the actually use for motion. Have you ever feet the hood of a car after it's been drivern? It's warm. That's wasted energy. To give you an idea of just how much energy is wasted, only about a third of the energy output of a car goes into moving the car. The other two thirds are wasted.
| Quote: | | Well, if we're going to devolve into silliness, I'll just say that all the space scenes in all six films were shot by handi-cam from inside space pods equipped with ears-up displays and large transparisteel viewports. |
Hold on a minute. The silliyness is inherent in the films. As others have noted, and even used for their signature, once you have a little green puppet acting as a mentor the bar is set pretty low. Once we try to apply a logical rational th things we are bound to run into snags.
The point I was trying to make is that just because a starfighter can operate in the vacuum of space does not necessarily mean that is can do so on a cold planet, and I gave scientific reasons why.
I also tried to point out why using the shields to completely block the starfighter off from the atmosphere doesn't work.
Now we can decide if we want TIEs to operate in a cold environment or not, but I was just pointing out that the logic behind their not working is sound.
And speaking of sound, my point there was that in Star Wars, everything isn't always logical or scientific.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So you are arguing that space opera effects must make sense under one set of circumstances, but not others?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 06 Mar 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Kansas
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This thread seems to be getting a little chippy.
Lets all take a breath and make sure we keep it civil, okay?
_________________
Blasted rules. Why can't they just be perfect? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 10:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| atgxtg wrote: | | And speaking of sound, my point there was that in Star Wars, everything isn't always logical or scientific. |
And thus, we apply Clarke's Third Law and state that the advanced technology does what we want it to do (never mind how) for the purposes of our own plot (whatever that may be) and move on. Since this has diverged relatively far from the original subject of orbital bombardment and planetary defenses, I would suggest that it be opened it in its own topic if you feel the matter merits further discussion.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10530
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| crmcneill wrote: | | I'll just say that all the space scenes in all six films were shot by handi-cam from inside space pods equipped with ears-up displays and large transparisteel viewports. |
OR... the films were shot as they really were on Earth, and the sound effects were intentionally added in postproduction for the sake of us, the real-world viewers. I appreciate attempts to apply real science to Star Wars where possible, but wow. In my SWU, there is no sound in space, just like in the real world, so no explanation is needed for that. And Basic does not actually sound identical to English - In my mind they would really be speaking a different language that has been dubbed into English on film, again for our sake.
| Whill wrote: | TIE Fighters can fit well within the height of the an AT-AT. I don't buy the restricted airspace explanation because it's not like the TIEs have to (or can) get up to full space combat speed under the Rebel shield.
The only thing I can think of it of that is not represented by game stats is that TIEs have horrible maneuverability in atmospheres so they would have just been shredded by the Rebel airspeeders. |
| crmcneill wrote: | | It's based on my house rule that relative maneuverability between craft of differing scales is subject to scale modifiers. Basically, with the 4D difference in scale (under the RAW) between speeders and starfighters, the airspace under the shield would be so restrictive that starfighters would be subject to a -4D penalty to all Maneuvers, while airspeeders could operate freely. Of course, the same penalty would apply to X-Wings, which would be the reason why they were reserved for transport escort duty. So yes, a TIE could fly at slower speeds and make more cautious maneuvers under the shield, but the smaller and more nimble airspeeders could run rings around them if they did. The margin isn't quite as large under my alternate scale system (Speeders are at +4D and Starfighters are at +6D), but a TIE would still be reduced to 0D Maneuverability, and that's before factoring in any Atmosphere Maneuvering penalty... TIEs maneuvering poorly in atmosphere has been a factor in the X-Wing novels, and I recall proposing a rule about it in the past. I think it was something along the lines of a simple -1D penalty to maneuver in atmosphere, but there may also have been reduced penalties for more advanced TIE models. |
You're kinda freaking me out cr. Do you live in the Matrix? In general I consider and discuss aspects of Star Wars continuity and reality in textual terms, and then later convert the ideas to game mechanics, which are rules to simulate the cinematic reality of Star Wars. You seem to think of the underlying reality of the SW universe in terms of game mechanics first. Agent McNeill?
| atgxtg wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | And I would think that any ship built to withstand space travel could handle the cold of Hoth. |
Hey, I can actually answer that one! While space is cold, much colder than Hoth, it also lacks a medium to transfer heat. So whatever heat you bring with you tends to stay with you. Getting rid of heat is actually more of a problem for real spacecraft than keeping warm.
Conversely air, or any other atmosphere, will bleed of heat at a much faster rate. So keeping the craft warm becomes more of an issue. On top of that, there is a problem with moisture causing the craft to ice up, which could cause problems with control, weight, balance and thrust.
So it is quite feasible that TIEs might not be suitable as atmospheric fighters in cold climates.
But is also quite feasible for the Empire to have some other type of fighter than can be deployed in such climates. Perhaps the Empire does have such a fighter, but it isn't that common, and none were available in time for Vader's attack on Hoth, and the Sith lord wasn't going to delay his attack long enough for some to arrive |
| crmcneill wrote: | | An alternate possibility is that they have them but chose not to deploy them in this scenario. Veers may have chosen to just deploy the walkers, arguing (quite correctly) that they could trample right over any opposition, including the airspeeders |
| atgxtg wrote: | It might also be argued that the Empire didn't need fighter support here. It was supposed to be a surprise attack. The Empire was expecting to capture fleeing rebels, not engage is a head to head battle. In theory the Imperial ships in orbit would prevent the rebel ships from escaping (the Ion Cannon messed that up), any TIE fighters would just get in the way of the Imperials own fire from orbit. The the walkers would allow the Imperial to overrun the rebel base and capture the rebel leaders, and get at sensitive rebel data, such as the location of other rebels, attack plans and such before the rebels could take action.
But the whole thing went bad for the Empire. To start with the rebels were aware of the attack long before the Imperial showed up, and instead of being caught by surprise, they were actually quite prepared. The Ion Cannon gave the rebels the ability to hold the Imperial Capital Ships at bay (yeah the Imps could have blasted the Ion cannon into slag, but that would have damaged the rebel base). The snow speeders were proved yet another example of an unexpected complications.
The Imperials went in overconfident, expecting a simple mop up job, and got embarrassed. |
| DougRed4 wrote: | While it is true that the Imperials were caught off guard, and the Rebels effectively scored a "victory" (by escaping with as much as they did), when we step back and look at the bigger picture, we see:
EIV: The Empire blows away a planet tied to the Rebellion and forces the Rebels to flee their secret base. They lose the Death Star in the process.
EV: The Rebels are able to mostly escape from their hidden base, but the Empire slays many of them and destroys their facility on Hoth.
So though the Rebels had some valiant heroics, it's still worth noting that the Empire (much bigger and more powerful) was the one doing the chasing/pursuing. They may have even suffered more losses (than the Rebels), but they had more to lose to begin with, and were still ones pounding and smashing the rag-tag Rebels.
In sports, it's kind of like saying "The Rebels did a valiant job at defense, but in the end the Empire still scored".
As for the discussed topic, I like the concept of the cold and ice proving to be detrimental to TIEs, such that the Empire didn't really need them. That and the fact that they hoped to be on the Rebels before they knew what hit them (which was blundered by Ozzel coming out of hyperspace too quickly). |
Thanks for your efforts, guys!
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
| atgxtg wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | Solution: Ships are equipped with surround-sound speakers in the cockpits that generate the illusion of sound coming from the direction of ships in close sensor range. Call it an "ears-up" display, in that a pilot can hear the direction, distance, speed and aspect angle of other ships without having to check his displays. And if it's not in his cockpit, it can be mounted in his helmet. |
Except why do we hear it when we are watching the battles from a space view? No, we just have to chalk that one up to movie magic! |
Okay, let's try my standby: Ion/fission/fusial thrust engines and blaster-type weapons create powerful magnetic fields which vibrate the hulls of most ships and the diaphragms of any spaceborn camera microphone nearby as they pass. They may even be strong enough to vibrate the blood in your tympanic membrane, so you can hear them pass even as you walk the void.
_________________
Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
Complete Starship Construction System |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 8:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Whill wrote: | OR... the films were shot as they really were on Earth, and the sound effects were intentionally added in postproduction for the sake of us, the real-world viewers. I appreciate attempts to apply real science to Star Wars where possible, but wow. In my SWU, there is no sound in space, just like in the real world, so no explanation is needed for that. And Basic does not actually sound identical to English - In my mind they would really be speaking a different language that has been dubbed into English on film, again for our sake.
|
LOL. Fair enough; to each, their own. My idea of an ears-up display works fine for me, as well.
| Whill wrote: | | You're kinda freaking me out cr. Do you live in the Matrix? In general I consider and discuss aspects of Star Wars continuity and reality in textual terms, and then later convert the ideas to game mechanics, which are rules to simulate the cinematic reality of Star Wars. You seem to think of the underlying reality of the SW universe in terms of game mechanics first. Agent McNeill? |
If you are referring to my Scale-Affects-Maneuverability concept, it is actually based on practical experience from my real world job (commercial truck driver), specifically, that if something is larger, it takes longer for it to make a maneuver and requires more room to do it. As such, a smaller vehicle will be able to operate normally in tight quarters, while a larger vehicle might still be able to do so, but at greater difficulty. The larger the vehicle, the less likely it becomes that it will be able to maneuver in those tight quarters. Seeing as how Scale is the only in-game treatment of relative size, that is what I based my rule on.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
