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Orbital Flight & Combat Rules
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Wouldn't it still need to get UNDER those shields first?

There is no direct evidence that planetary shields like the ones at Hoth go all the way down to the ground..


Well planetary shields form a sphere around a planet. So you have to be under them when they go up, or bash a hole in them (thrawn and the dark empire novel).
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was the Hoth shield a planetary shield or an area shield?
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmanski wrote:
Was the Hoth shield a planetary shield or an area shield?
It was an area shield. If it were a planetary shield, the imperial army wouldn't have been able to land on Hoth at all.
crmcneill wrote:
There is no direct evidence that planetary shields like the ones at Hoth go all the way down to the ground...

...My theory all along has been that the energy shield has a definite gap between the edges and the ground; the only question I'm still trying to settle is exactly how close to the ground that shield is.
Agreed. In one of the old Young Jedi Knights books, a TIE fighter ducks under the area shield on Yavin 4. Also, were the Hoth shield to go all the way to the ground, the AT-ATs wouldn't have been able to walk through it, so we can conclude there's at least more of a gap than the height of an AT-AT.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What he said.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aegisflashfire wrote:
The light side main game is considered canon.


But that begs the question: what level of canon? Because as of right now (until they finally axe most of it, which should happen soon), there's G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, N-canon and D-canon.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a related note, this weapon was featured in the opening scenes of Before The Storm, the first book of the Black Fleet Crisis, and it always intrigued me. Since it is on topic, here are the stats for the Hypervelocity Cannon.

HYPERVELOCITY CANNON
Mode: Heavy Anti-Orbital Projectile Cannon
Scale: Capital
Skill: Blaster Artillery
Crew: 10 (5 @ +10)
Cover: Full
Ammo: Effectively Unlimited (underground ammo bunkers are presumed to have sufficient ammunition to last for any engagement).
Availability: 3, X
Body: 3D
Fire Control: 3D
Range: 10-50/100/200km
Rate of Fire: 3D (Auto-Fire)
Damage: 7D

Capsule: This surface mounted cannon uses repulsorlift technology to fling small projectiles into orbit at extreme velocities, inflicting high-yield explosives grade damage through sheer force of impact. Hypervelocity cannon are almost always protected by shield generators, which are synced to flicker open and closed to allow the cannon's projectile to pass through the shields unaffected. However, the shield's effectiveness is degraded by this coordination, as the flickering effect of the shield increases the chance that attacks against the shield or the cannon will pass through during the moment when the shield is down.

In game terms, every 1D of Auto-Fire used increases the chance that an enemy attack will penetrate the shield. Use the following chart:
    # of Auto-Fire Dice Used = Wild Die Success Threshold
    1D = 6
    2D = 5
    3D = 4
For example, if the cannon used all 3D of its Auto-Fire rating, any attack with a Wild Die result of 4 or higher would pass through any defensive shields unaffected, regardless of the shield's soak rating.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
aegisflashfire wrote:
The light side main game is considered canon.

But that begs the question: what level of canon? Because as of right now (until they finally axe most of it, which should happen soon), there's G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, N-canon and D-canon.

It's C-canon. There hasn't been any new G-canon since Revenge of the Sith, and unless recent T-canon Clone Wars cartoon episodes contradicted Force Unleashed, which is extremely unlikely considering the time frames, then Force Unleashed is still considered canon.

As you mentioned, the current canon system is on the verge of being wiped clean and replaced with something much more simple: Canon and not canon.

Whill wrote:
I've never understood that. With the height of an AT-AT, couldn't TIE fighters fly low enough to get under the shield? And I would think that any ship built to withstand space travel could handle the cold of Hoth. And if it is a movement speed thing like the Gungan shields, don't the maneuvering repulsorlifts on TIEs enable the ship to fly slow enough to move through a shield like that?

Fallon Kell wrote:
crmcneill wrote:
There is no direct evidence that planetary shields like the ones at Hoth go all the way down to the ground...

...My theory all along has been that the energy shield has a definite gap between the edges and the ground; the only question I'm still trying to settle is exactly how close to the ground that shield is.
Agreed. In one of the old Young Jedi Knights books, a TIE fighter ducks under the area shield on Yavin 4. Also, were the Hoth shield to go all the way to the ground, the AT-ATs wouldn't have been able to walk through it, so we can conclude there's at least more of a gap than the height of an AT-AT.

Which still begs my question. TIE Fighters can fit well within the height of the an AT-AT. I don't buy the restricted airspace explanation because it's not like the TIEs have to (or can) get up to full space combat speed under the Rebel shield.

The only thing I can think of it of that is not represented by game stats is that TIEs have horrible maneuverability in atmospheres so they would have just been shredded by the Rebel airspeeders. Of course that would mean that the Empire would have assumed the Rebels would have them, which is reasonable if they had them at other bases in the three years that the Empire had been hunting down Rebel bases.

But this explanation begs another question: If TIEs were ineffective in atmospheric combat/ground support, why wouldn't the Empire have combat airspeeders on star destroyers? The absence of Imperial airspeeders suggests that TIEs could serve that role as needed.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
And I would think that any ship built to withstand space travel could handle the cold of Hoth.


Hey, I can actually answer that one! While space is cold, much colder than Hoth, it also lacks a medium to transfer heat. So whatever heat you bring with you tends to stay with you. Getting rid of heat is actually more of a problem for real spacecraft than keeping warm.

Conversely air, or any other atmosphere, will bleed of heat at a much faster rate. So keeping the craft warm becomes more of an issue. On top of that, there is a problem with moisture causing the craft to ice up, which could cause problems with control, weight, balance and thrust.

So it is quite feasible that TIEs might not be suitable as atmospheric fighters in cold climates.


But is also quite feasible for the Empire to have some other type of fighter than can be deployed in such climates. Perhaps the Empire does have such a fighter, but it isn't that common, and none were available in time for Vader's attack on Hoth, and the Sith lord wasn't going to delay his attack long enough for some to arrive - especially if sending for them might have tipped off the rebels.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
TIE Fighters can fit well within the height of the an AT-AT. I don't buy the restricted airspace explanation because it's not like the TIEs have to (or can) get up to full space combat speed under the Rebel shield.

It's based on my house rule that relative maneuverability between craft of differing scales is subject to scale modifiers. Basically, with the 4D difference in scale (under the RAW) between speeders and starfighters, the airspace under the shield would be so restrictive that starfighters would be subject to a -4D penalty to all Maneuvers, while airspeeders could operate freely. Of course, the same penalty would apply to X-Wings, which would be the reason why they were reserved for transport escort duty. So yes, a TIE could fly at slower speeds and make more cautious maneuvers under the shield, but the smaller and more nimble airspeeders could run rings around them if they did. The margin isn't quite as large under my alternate scale system (Speeders are at +4D and Starfighters are at +6D), but a TIE would still be reduced to 0D Maneuverability, and that's before factoring in any Atmosphere Maneuvering penalty.

If you don't buy it, that's okay. I'm pretty satisfied with the concept up to this point.

Quote:
The only thing I can think of it of that is not represented by game stats is that TIEs have horrible maneuverability in atmospheres so they would have just been shredded by the Rebel airspeeders. Of course that would mean that the Empire would have assumed the Rebels would have them, which is reasonable if they had them at other bases in the three years that the Empire had been hunting down Rebel bases.

TIEs maneuvering poorly in atmosphere has been a factor in the X-Wing novels, and I recall proposing a rule about it in the past. I think it was something along the lines of a simple -1D penalty to maneuver in atmosphere, but there may also have been reduced penalties for more advanced TIE models.

Quote:
But this explanation begs another question: If TIEs were ineffective in atmospheric combat/ground support, why wouldn't the Empire have combat airspeeders on star destroyers? The absence of Imperial airspeeders suggests that TIEs could serve that role as needed.

An alternate possibility is that they have them but chose not to deploy them in this scenario. Veers may have chosen to just deploy the walkers, arguing (quite correctly) that they could trample right over any opposition, including the airspeeders, and that while the restricted airspace under the shield would prevent the AT-ATs from receiving TIE air support, it would also prevent the Alliance's starfighters from attacking the AT-ATs for the same reason.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the airspeeder issue, perhaps the empire felt keeping them on ships was not worth the time/effort/space. Garrisons are good as is for air defense.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:

An alternate possibility is that they have them but chose not to deploy them in this scenario. Veers may have chosen to just deploy the walkers, arguing (quite correctly) that they could trample right over any opposition, including the airspeeders, and that while the restricted airspace under the shield would prevent the AT-ATs from receiving TIE air support, it would also prevent the Alliance's starfighters from attacking the AT-ATs for the same reason.


It might also be argued that the Empire didn't need fighter support here. It was supposed to be a surprise attack. The Empire was expecting to capture fleeing rebels, not engage is a head to head battle. In theory the Imperial ships in orbit would prevent the rebel ships from escaping (the Ion Cannon messed that up), any TIE fighters would just get in the way of the Imperials own fire from orbit. The the walkers would allow the Imperial to overrun the rebel base and capture the rebel leaders, and get at sensitive rebel data, such as the location of other rebels, attack plans and such before the rebels could take action.

But the whole thing went bad for the Empire. To start with the rebels were aware of the attack long before the Imperial showed up, and instead of being caught by surprise, they were actually quite prepared. The Ion Cannon gave the rebels the ability to hold the Imperial Capital Ships at bay (yeah the Imps could have blasted the Ion cannon into slag, but that would have damaged the rebel base). The snow speeders were proved yet another example of an unexpected complications.

The Imperials went in overconfident, expecting a simple mop up job, and got embarrassed.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While it is true that the Imperials were caught off guard, and the Rebels effectively scored a "victory" (by escaping with as much as they did), when we step back and look at the bigger picture, we see:

EIV: The Empire blows away a planet tied to the Rebellion and forces the Rebels to flee their secret base. They lose the Death Star in the process.

EV: The Rebels are able to mostly escape from their hidden base, but the Empire slays many of them and destroys their facility on Hoth.

So though the Rebels had some valiant heroics, it's still worth noting that the Empire (much bigger and more powerful) was the one doing the chasing/pursuing. They may have even suffered more losses (than the Rebels), but they had more to lose to begin with, and were still ones pounding and smashing the rag-tag Rebels.

In sports, it's kind of like saying "The Rebels did a valiant job at defense, but in the end the Empire still scored".

As for the discussed topic, I like the concept of the cold and ice proving to be detrimental to TIEs, such that the Empire didn't really need them. That and the fact that they hoped to be on the Rebels before they knew what hit them (which was blundered by Ozzel coming out of hyperspace too quickly).
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My only concern with the suggestion of TIEs not being equipped to handle cold temperatures is that all space capable ships in the SWU are considered to have navigation shields. IMO, having navigation shields is what allows otherwise unaerodynamic ships to operate in atmosphere, as well as protecting the ship from the heat of a high-speed entry. I would think that a navigation shield would also be capable of protecting a ship from bleeding off of heat in a cold atmosphere. You could rule it otherwise, but I don't see the need to do it just to support a house rule that TIEs can't operate in sub-zero atmospheric conditions.
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
My only concern with the suggestion of TIEs not being equipped to handle cold temperatures is that all space capable ships in the SWU are considered to have navigation shields. IMO, having navigation shields is what allows otherwise unaerodynamic ships to operate in atmosphere, as well as protecting the ship from the heat of a high-speed entry. I would think that a navigation shield would also be capable of protecting a ship from bleeding off of heat in a cold atmosphere. You could rule it otherwise, but I don't see the need to do it just to support a house rule that TIEs can't operate in sub-zero atmospheric conditions.


In order to do that, the navigation shields would have to completely block off the ship from the atmosphere. And, if they did that, the Ties would overheat. So it isn't really feasible.

But then TIes aren't supposed to be making noise in space either.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
In order to do that, the navigation shields would have to completely block off the ship from the atmosphere. And, if they did that, the Ties would overheat. So it isn't really feasible.

Why would they overheat? Their wing panels are supposed to be solar ionization collectors, not heat dissipation units.

Quote:
But then TIes aren't supposed to be making noise in space either.

Solution: Ships are equipped with surround-sound speakers in the cockpits that generate the illusion of sound coming from the direction of ships in close sensor range. Call it an "ears-up" display, in that a pilot can hear the direction, distance, speed and aspect angle of other ships without having to check his displays. And if it's not in his cockpit, it can be mounted in his helmet.
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