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Orbital Flight & Combat Rules
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Han Solo's Revenge was the original source for the Victory, and it was published in 1979. The scene in the novel very clearly showed the ship much, much closer to the planet's surface than "upper atmosphere", so that description is most likely just another WEG error. We also have both the Acclamator and Venator-Class ships in the prequels actually able to land, so the idea certainly has EU precedence.
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aegisflashfire
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Force Unleashed shows a number of ISD's in the LOWER atmosphere. (not just the one that Starkiller brings down, but also during Vader's assault on Kashyyykk and the capture of the leaders of the Rebellion.)
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Ral_Brelt
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But aren't the Acclimator and Venator much smaller than even the Vic I's 900m? I think they have an unwritten bit concerning size limits for atmospheric action. The ISD is 1600m per the ISb, and further down in the Vic I's text it states
Quote:
One of the vessel's most powerful advantages is its ability to enter the upper levels of a planet's atmosphere -- something the newer Star Destroyers cannot do.


Granted the Vic II can't enter so it may be an actual design basis. But we see corvettes land and work in atmo in the movies and RPG. As to the ISDs in Force Unleashed...I only recall the QuickTime battle having the ISD in atmo. The ones at Kashyyyk, I believe are still orbital, and just visible due to their size. There is reference to this in comics, RPG and novels...usually a silvery white dagger visible at night or raining down ardent green bolts of death.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At 1,137 meters, the Venator is 237 meters longer than a Victory.

As far as what the WEG write-up says, the actual source material for the Victory (the novel Han Solo's Revenge) clearly shows that Victory I's can descend almost to a planet's surface (although it never states they can actually land). AFAIAC, if a WEG source which was published ten years or so after the original source disagrees with the original source, then WEG is wrong.
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aegisflashfire
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ral_Brelt wrote:
As to the ISDs in Force Unleashed...I only recall the QuickTime battle having the ISD in atmo. The ones at Kashyyyk, I believe are still orbital, and just visible due to their size. There is reference to this in comics, RPG and novels...usually a silvery white dagger visible at night or raining down ardent green bolts of death.


Fairly certain you see them in front of the clouds.

http://youtu.be/I1UApb46aK4 at 1:58 you can see what appear to be ISD's in low atmosphere (I had problems with this when the game came out....)
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Ral_Brelt
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair enough on the size, I never much cared for the prequel ship designs in any case.

@aegis Better memory than me on that sir, kudos. That said, isn't all of the Force Unleashed an alternate universe than the movies, etc? I don't recall the architects of the Rebellion ever being captured by the Empire. You kill Fett, Han and Chewie as Starkiller as well...and Obi-wan if I remember correctly...
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aegisflashfire
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The light side main game is considered canon.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
As far as what the WEG write-up says, the actual source material for the Victory (the novel Han Solo's Revenge) clearly shows that Victory I's can descend almost to a planet's surface (although it never states they can actually land). AFAIAC, if a WEG source which was published ten years or so after the original source disagrees with the original source, then WEG is wrong.

I don't disagree with you, and I was just trying to be helpful to the conversation by quoting what 1st wave WEG said on the subject. I understand your last sentence is meant to convey as far as you are concerned, but for the sake of discussion, within the EU it is general practice to resolve contradictions with newer source "retconning" the old, like with Imps going atmospheric when it had previously been stated they couldn't. In that light, the 10 years later would seem to usually have precedence over 10 year earlier.

However another thing to consider is that both sources predate the formulation of the EU in 1991. Lucas directed Zahn to treat the WEG sources as canon, which seems to also give WEG precedence.

Although for my SWU, I'm inclined to say WEG is probably wrong, but not for the same reason. 10 years earlier or later makes no difference to me. Han Solo's Revenge is a story, while WEG is just informational RPG fluff. If I accept a story in my canon, then that has precedence. I haven't read the Daley Han Solo Adventures since the 90s, but I remember liking them so I would have agree with the Victory-class conforming to what was shown in the novel.

And as stated, the prequel destroyers do indeed land on planets.

aegisflashfire wrote:
The light side main game is considered canon.

And regarding the Force Unleashed, to each his own but that is a prime example of why I do not accept everything from the EU in my personal canon. Not only a Sith apprentice crashing a star destroyer with the Force, but all sorts of ridiculous things are canon like the Rebel Alliance being formed by the Starkiller as part of an Imperial plot and Bail Organa being on the Death Star before going to Alderaan to be destroyed by it. I take the Force Unleashed with a grain of spice.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
I understand your last sentence is meant to convey as far as you are concerned, but for the sake of discussion, within the EU it is general practice to resolve contradictions with newer source "retconning" the old, like with Imps going atmospheric when it had previously been stated they couldn't. In that light, the 10 years later would seem to usually have precedence over 10 year earlier.

True, which is why I am such a skeptic when it comes to the retconning of the EU. In this case, however, I would think that any retconning would be overridden by WEG's publication of the Han Solo & the Corporate Sector Sourcebook...

Quote:
I take the Force Unleashed with a grain of spice.

Agreed. For the most part, video game designers have a tendency to let their imaginations overrule in-universe realism and consistency.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the Victory's low-level flight capability is also an argument in favor of a low altitude localized shield projector; if the shield is projected too high off the ground, a Victory could just fly right in underneath it. so the energy shield would likely have to be within a kilometer of the surface to keep cap ships out.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

And regarding the Force Unleashed, to each his own but that is a prime example of why I do not accept everything from the EU in my personal canon. Not only a Sith apprentice crashing a star destroyer with the Force, but all sorts of ridiculous things are canon like the Rebel Alliance being formed by the Starkiller as part of an Imperial plot and Bail Organa being on the Death Star before going to Alderaan to be destroyed by it. I take the Force Unleashed with a grain of spice.


Heck, most of what are in those PC and console games i consider third tier order for officiality, behind the WEG/WOTC books and novels.

Quote:
Actually, the Victory's low-level flight capability is also an argument in favor of a low altitude localized shield projector; if the shield is projected too high off the ground, a Victory could just fly right in underneath it. so the energy shield would likely have to be within a kilometer of the surface to keep cap ships out.


Wouldn't it still need to get UNDER those shields first?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Wouldn't it still need to get UNDER those shields first?

There is no direct evidence that planetary shields like the ones at Hoth go all the way down to the ground. The Gungan shield may have worked like that, but all three official shield types actually inflict their shield strength in damage to anything that comes into contact with them, so if the Gungan shields had a similar effect, the battle droids at the end of TPM would've been disintegrated by contact with them rather than being able to force their way through.

My theory all along has been that the energy shield has a definite gap between the edges and the ground; the only question I'm still trying to settle is exactly how close to the ground that shield is. Among other things, restricted airspace under the shield could be the primary reason why starfighters weren't used to engage the AT-ATs, and the Alliance had to send out the airspeeders instead.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think airspeeders were used to attack the AT-ATs so Lucas could sell more toys.... Wink
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmanski wrote:
I think airspeeders were used to attack the AT-ATs so Lucas could sell more toys.... Wink


That's simply not true! Darth Kenner assured me...
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laughing
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