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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | | Now if we applied that system to luke, his force choke on the gamorreans only gets him one DSP for knowing/learning/using the power rather than every time he uses it, for knowing/using this corruption of telekinetic jedi powers. And sure enough when you look at Luke's RotJ sheet he has a DSP. |
I have played with a different rule (that I really like). Short version is that, for certain Dark Side powers, like TK Kill, the Jedi can make a Willpower roll to inflict Stun damage only. The difficulty for the Willpower roll is equal to the Jedi's Control roll made to bring up TK Kill. If he succeeds, his TK Kill attack inflicts only Stun damage. If he fails, his willpower is insufficient to rein in his negative emotions and he inflicts normal damage, receiving a DSP as normal.
I have proposed this rule multiple times, and it has met with a lot of flak from those who feel it gives the Jedi easy access to Dark Side powers, but it hasn't played out like that in gameplay. The biggest obstacle for munchkin players is that they have to spend CP to keep their Willpower skill at least 2D in advance of their Control skill if they want to have a chance of succeeding regularly at this. It adds an eciting aspect of randomness to the use of this and other powers, in that, rather than the character knowing absolutely that he can't use these powers, he has a chance to gamble with his character's morality and possibly succeed in using a mild version of these powers to great effect, knowing that if he fails, his character is edging closer and closer to the Darkness.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | Myself, and many others I know, also always felt it was clearly intended along with other elements in RotJ that Luke was on the path to the dark side...the same path as his father. It seems he knows he's starting to stray when he takes effort to hide his damaged, mechanical hand from Yoda to avoid the need to explain it. He only becomes aware of how much like his father he is when, after lashing out in rage, severs Vader's right hand to see it is mechanical, then looks to his own right hand with aprehension. This is how many of the fans I know persoanlly (grew up with, know in the real world, etc...) have interpreted the events as well. So I offer it up for thought. |
I can see your point, and the situation in ROTJ is ambiguous enough to be open to interpretation. However, the point was made in a previous discussion on this topic that such casual use of the Force (two DSP just to impress the door men) was excessive for a character who had not fallen to the Dark Side (whether he was on the path or not). Even Anakin, who ultimately ended up falling, only used Force Choke when under extreme emotional duress, yet Luke is under no such strain in this situation. Furthermore, with all the tools at his disposal (most notably Affect Mind, which he used successfully on Bib Fortuna mere seconds after his encounter with the Gamorreans), why would Luke have to resort to a Dark Side power when he could've just convinced the Gamorreans to let him pass?
As I said, the situation is certainly open to interpretation, but I have seen enough WEG screw-ups over the years that I find it simpler to believe that WEG simply ignored a crucial piece of evidence when making their Force rules. Editing that ruling to allow Jedi to use TK in a limited offensive form erases the discrepancy between the actions of prequel and classic era Jedi, and if done with the right rule, adds an exciting facet to game play (makes the possibility of getting a DSP more like gambling at a casino than quoting from a legal manual).
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vanir
Jedi
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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I quite like the willpower check to keep generalised "dark side" powers under control for non-lethal effect, ergo non-lethal intent and subsequently reasonable chance to avoid DSP. I'm going to think more on that and discuss it with the group when we get together. Naturally Sith-specific powers like Force Lightning or Bolt of Hatred automatically gain DSP by the nature of the power, but I should think not necessarily TK-as you described it to be used (more like projected fighting really).
So far our standing house rule has been using the Force directly for attack is highly likely to get you DSP regardless of intent (ignorance is no excuse and the results mechanical rather than moral), whilst using the Force indirectly even for attack is relatively unlikely to get you DSP unless the character is being extreme, eg. murderous intent as opposed to proactive defense. But you'd get a DSP doing that with a blaster too, not nice to go around shooting younglings randomly say. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:39 am Post subject: |
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Glad you liked it. IMO, apart from a few of the really evil Dark Side powers, I've found that it is a lot more fun to take scenarios where WEG says "absolutely not" and change them to "possible, but risky and very difficult".
It's unfortunate that WEG's moral code for Jedi is so absolute; absolutist doctrines never react well when applied to reality.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
absolutist doctrines never react well when applied to reality. |
NEVER???
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Zarm R'keeg
Commander
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
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Location: PA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Seeing as how Lucas is the primary source of all thing Star Wars, and WEG was just playing around in his world, I can't accept the idea that he was wrong and WEG was right. |
Well, that is the difference between us. Seeing as how Lucas seems to have lost his mind, I not only accept that notion, I default to it in anything involving post-1990 Lucas, until proven otherwise. 
That said, I would see Luke's actions there as dark and intentionally so, so if WEG claims they were not, I could see that as an error on their part. If Lucas claims it is not... then I would see that as an error on his. At least potentially, because...
| crmcneill wrote: | | Furthermore, with all the tools at his disposal (most notably Affect Mind, which he used successfully on Bib Fortuna mere seconds after his encounter with the Gamorreans), why would Luke have to resort to a Dark Side power when he could've just convinced the Gamorreans to let him pass? |
...I have heard the suggestion that Luke was simply using affect mind to make the Gamorreans THINK that they were in distress, instead of actually choking them. One could debate the dark or lightness of that anyway, but it does allow Luke to be treading a darker path (making people think they're being strangled) without overtly using DS strangulation on them.
| crmcneill wrote: | | It's unfortunate that WEG's moral code for Jedi is so absolute; absolutist doctrines never react well when applied to reality. |
Oh, I don't think that's true. But, if you can tell me absolutely that absolutist doctrines never work...
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Whill
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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This is one of those rare and wonderful moments where disproving my statement actually supports the idea behind it.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Well, that is the difference between us. Seeing as how Lucas seems to have lost his mind, I not only accept that notion, I default to it in anything involving post-1990 Lucas, until proven otherwise. |
That's fine; to each their own. I just can't help but laugh when people propose in all seriousness that a secondary source like WEG is somehow more official than the films themselves, then attempt to define THE primary source for all things Star Wars by WEG's flawed interpretation. As though WEG Star Wars D6 would even exist without the films they diverged from. 
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Liquidsabre
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Joined: 16 Apr 2005
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Location: Olathe, KS
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think its too out of line to say WEG SWD6 is one of the reasons why we have the SW expanded universe we see today. I mean let's face it, when WEG got the Star Wars license Lucas wasn't really doing a whole lot with it. Thus WEG had the creative license to develop the star wars universe. No RPG today could ever have that level of creative freedom with with Star Wars universe ever again, Lucas has the SW universe under tight control now. I'd say that makes WEG more than a secondary source. Hell they were the first ones to show us how a lightsaber was constructed in a full beautiful art layout. So much in the expanded universe, thrawn trilogy, newer editions of SW RPG all referenced and researched WEG star wars for development of new star wars material.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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I agree we owe them a lot; I just don't think that that should translate into an assumption of infallibility on their part. As great as the game is, they made mistakes, and as such, WEG's material should be viewed with no less of a critical eye than any other EU source, especially when there is a potential contradiction with the films themselves.
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vanir
Jedi
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:21 am Post subject: |
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There's two angles on this debate which should subsequently be short lived. Lucas stated for Zhan the canon goes: himself, the movies, official LucasArts publication, finally EU and games. Problem here is Lucas is head canon and changes track, so the canon keeps changing with each new film and any comments Lucas feels like adding in interviews.
He discussed back in the 80s that during filming of Empire Strikes Back, which despite popular opinion was never originally planned, Star Wars was filmed as "trilogy-like in the scifi/fantasy genre" but was intended to be a standalone film, no sequels or prequels were originally planned. Or more to the point Lucas had toyed with the idea in preproduction of making the Star Wars screenplay span two or three movies but cut it back to one. The popularity/success of that movie at the box office and afterwards drove its sequels.
Lucas said when he worked in production for ESB he decided at that point to turn the continuing saga over to fans for how it would evolve. Fans wanted to see more of Han Solo and the Millenium Falcon so a good portion of the movie catered to it. The saga of the Jedi-apprentice Luke Skywalker continued as the main plot device but Lucas used a simple soap opera device for the climactic scene with Darth Vader, who at this stage was still a seperate character from Anakin Skywalker (who was just an abstract character in the backstory of Obi Wan and Luke and tied those two together). Lucas said even when the film was aired he hadn't decided yet if Vader's claim to being Luke's father was a falsehood by a darksider attempting to manipulate an impressionable youth, who is prone to simply psychology experienced warriors use in battle to gain the upper hand and deal a killing blow. Had Luke accepted Vader's hand at Bespin for example, Lucas may have had the dark lord simply cut him down and call him a gullible fool. He hadn't decided how it would play out in Return of the Jedi (which was planned during filming of ESB, but was called Revenge of the Jedi at that stage as Vader wasn't Anakin and had indeed murdered Anakin, Luke's father). Then when it came time to begin RotJ production fans had taken to the claim of Vader and Anakin being one and the same person, so it was then that Lucas finally decided to take that path with the screenplay for RotJ, which was renamed Return of the Jedi (the prequel film Revenge of the Sith was an homage to this renaming of the OT final film).
So even midway through what became the OT, Lucas changed canon as he went along, with it the entire backstory that any EU happened to be using.
On top of this you have the issue that EU and even the films involve the contributions of several authors, each has their own point of view, interpretations and inspirations on SWU canon, some are as dumb as a bag of hammers and others have a good idea of what the original themes of the first Star Wars really contained.
My favourite canon, although a lot of it is changed is the original concept art for Star Wars back in the mid-70s, that Lucas was using as storybook cards when developing the final screenplay. At that point Luke and Han were actually the same person, the standard weapon of the Stormtrooper was the lightsabre, the Galactic Republic was actually the Galactic Monarchy and the Emperor a Regent-Steward who with Vader's help had performed a coup de etat and murdered the Royal Family to take over the throne, Luke/Han was rightful heir to the throne but didn't know it as he'd been secreted away from the Emperor's reach as an infant by Obi Wan and raised as a regular citizen so became a smuggler, it was rather different. This story line is actually explored by Margaret Weiss in the Bloodsword Trilogy, with certain changes to prevent copyright infringement.
So canon becomes really a matter of what you choose for your SWU within your gameplay, because it can vary so dramatically that each version can be a completely different dimension to another. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Zarm R'keeg wrote: | | Well, that is the difference between us. Seeing as how Lucas seems to have lost his mind, I not only accept that notion, I default to it in anything involving post-1990 Lucas, until proven otherwise. |
That's fine; to each their own. I just can't help but laugh when people propose in all seriousness that a secondary source like WEG is somehow more official than the films themselves, then attempt to define THE primary source for all things Star Wars by WEG's flawed interpretation. As though WEG Star Wars D6 would even exist without the films they diverged from. |
I think we are a minority on this board, but overall I'm with you in that respect. Since my personal chosen canon includes all the films but only some EU, I also feel the RPG Force system needs updated to account for the prequels, as opposed to the prequel films being declared non-canon simply because they contradict WEG. But to each his own - Many WEG Star Wars GMs will more readily ignore aspects of the prequels because it suites their own view of the Star Wars universe. However I don't really feel WEG's interpretation is especially flawed. Based on the incomplete film saga at the time of WEG published their rules, the interpretation doesn't contradict too much.
Regarding Luke and the Gamorrenans, I think it is first worth mentioning the out-of-universe reason for the scene. Luke seeming to use Vader's trademark Force choke was meant to create a sense of doubt of Luke's morality for the audience, the same thing his black outfit does, riffing off Luke's vision in the Dagobah cave where he saw himself in Vader's helmet. Will Luke turn to evil as his father had? Luke seems to be treading down a dark path. Early on, it builds drama towards the character's personal climax at the end of the film, where he almost turns to the Dark Side but doesn't.
As far as the game interpretation of that event, sure, Luke could be using Affect Mind and just making them think they were choking. Or maybe Luke got a couple Dark Side points. I think it also brings to consideration the rules for learning powers, and other stories not told.
Where did Luke learn that power? Is it instinctive, or was their more training after Yoda? We know that Obi-Wan's spirit would not have taught that to Luke (or communicated much of anything between sequels due to Obi-Wan not responding to Luke's question, "Why didn't you tell me?" until RotJ). And Luke is suddenly a bad-@$$ in RotJ and needs no more training from Yoda, so I imagine Luke got more training along the way, but from who?
| Liquidsabre wrote: | | I don't think its too out of line to say WEG SWD6 is one of the reasons why we have the SW expanded universe we see today. |
| crmcneill wrote: | | I agree we owe them a lot |
I concur.
| crmcneill wrote: | | I just don't think that that should translate into an assumption of infallibility on their part. As great as the game is, they made mistakes, and as such, WEG's material should be viewed with no less of a critical eye than any other EU source, especially when there is a potential contradiction with the films themselves. |
Well said.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:11 am Post subject: |
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| Liquidsabre wrote: | | No RPG today could ever have that level of creative freedom with with Star Wars universe ever again. |
True.
| Liquidsabre wrote: | | Lucas has the SW universe under tight control now. |
Are you kidding? So not true. Lucas has rarely exercised any control over the Expanded Universe, back then or now. Sure, he put the block on certain subjects before the prequels came out, but not because it would contradict what he would later do, because Lucas had the absolute power of "retcon". He blocked certain things so they would be fresh subjects in his films, and also due to the dangers of the EU happening to get too close to what he was going to do. He rejected the proposal of Vector Prime killing off Luke, but not because it would contradict any future sequels (that he will not make). It was purely a business decision - Luke sells. Lucas thought the franchise would fare better with Luke still alive, not because he gives a damn about EU continuity. Remember how Lucas blatantly disregarded aspects of the established EU in the prequels? And Lucas has flat-out stated that in his personal version of the Star Wars Universe, the Emperor never came back to life, Luke never got married and the Sith were completely and utterly destroyed for all time by Anakin Skywalker. But these things were allowed to exist in the EU anyway. Sith sells. Lucas doesn't care about the EU except for how it makes him richer.
As much many of you hate Lucas, he considers himself an artist and an entrepenuer both. He views all 6 Star Wars films as art and products both. Just because many of you don't appreciate the prequels or the revisions to the original films as artistic (art is subjective to the viewer), that doesn't mean it's not art. Cinema is an artform. However to Lucas, the EU has never had any other purpose than being a business, including our beloved WEG RPG that was one of the main pillars the fledgeling EU was based on. This game means much more to me and you, but not Lucas. We might enjoy some of the novels aand appreciate them as the artform known as literature, but Lucas doesn't read them or care too much about their content.
Post film-saga, Lucas uses his executive power of veto over very major things he doesn't think will be good for the EU business, but he certainly does not have "tight control" over the universe. Lucas provides light direction, not tight control. At the beginning, his first executive order for the EU was to not contradict the films, or itself. Then he turned it over to others with that directive, and they failed miserably. Dark Empire can't even be reconsiled with the Thrawn Trilogy! And as the years go by and more more continuity is added to the EU, the problem only compounds exponentially as the Universe continues to Expand. If Lucas had tight control over the EU, it would be a very different universe than it is. It would be a lot less contradictory to the films and itself (which would be a good thing for me), but maybe it would also have even suffered somewhat if he stiffled the creativity of EU contributors too much (pure speculation but I concede that it's possible).
The EU is a runaway locomotive with no one (Lucas or otherwise) at the helm. For it to all occur in one single universe makes it one gigantic space-time anomaly that eats any that ever appeared in Star Trek for breakfast. The EU is a schizophrenic mess. Lucas's publishing continuity management staff must just sit around, get high, play video games and collect a fat paycheck for it. They have utterly failed in their mission and should be fired. Honestly, the current EU is beyond salvage without some more major retconning, so it would be easier to reboot the entire EU and start over. Oh wait, I already did that for my SW Multiverse.
The real reason that no RPG would have the creative freedom that WEG had is because the WEG game predated the modern EU concept. The EU was born out of a business decision to unite the continuity of WEG, the Dark Empire comic, and the Thrawn Trilogy with almost all subsequent published continuity. There was already a good amount of WEG material amassed by that point so that happened to be the largest initial contribution (as a whole) to the infant EU. Now the immensly expanded schizoverse is already impossible to reconsile with itself, so it is very difficult for anything new to have even a semblance of fitting in without some major restrictions. In other words, the incredible bulk of "continuity" that already exists is the main restriction, not Lucas.
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | It's unfortunate that WEG's moral code for Jedi is so absolute; absolutist doctrines never react well when applied to reality. |
The problem isn't in the absoluteness. It's in where those absolutes lie.
Math is an absolutist doctrine, which applies perfectly to reality.
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