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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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 Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | No way Ewoks should be 12D, for example. |
Why not? I'd imagine their STR, DEX and PER would be quite high. |
An average Ewok is primitive. Should an average Ewok have three attributes at 4D each? Even 1D in KNO, MEC and TEC is more than primitive. It is below average galactic. The game system does not truly reflect primitive species, so these three attributes should be 0D with some skills higher. If they are, then a 12D total would still have STR, DEX and PER too high for an average Ewok. If you do use a minimum of 1D for KNO, MEC and TEC, then the Ewoks are not really primitive and thus above average. No matter how you slice it, a truly average Ewok should not have 12D in attributes.
This has been talked about a lot before. Please search for prior threads for more info.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
All GMs should feel empowered to restat RAW and even rewrite fluff as they see fit. If a GM wants Wookiees to have claws, they can. |
THIS. People forget the RPG/wargame hobby is ours to make and remake how we want. That's kinda the whole point of it compared to video games or football.
I'm not gonna re-litigate Ewoks extensively on this thread. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | TauntaunScout wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | No way Ewoks should be 12D, for example. |
Why not? I'd imagine their STR, DEX and PER would be quite high. |
An average Ewok is primitive. Should an average Ewok have three attributes at 4D each? Even 1D in KNO, MEC and TEC is more than primitive. It is below average galactic. The game system does not truly reflect primitive species, so these three attributes should be 0D with some skills higher. If they are, then a 12D total would still have STR, DEX and PER too high for an average Ewok. If you do use a minimum of 1D for KNO, MEC and TEC, then the Ewoks are not really primitive and thus above average. No matter how you slice it, a truly average Ewok should not have 12D in attributes.
This has been talked about a lot before. Please search for prior threads for more info. |
Exactly.. IF ewoks were REALLY primitive (remembering 2d is an AVERAGE stat), they'd be around 0d+1 or 0d+2 in Mech and maybe 1d in tech, From what we saw on screen, they'd have a decent str and dex, say 2d+2. Per and know would be ave.. So 2d ea. So that's 11d or there abouts...
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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This gets into what we were talking about here. The existing Attribute & Skill system is designed to represent well-rounded characters who have a varying degree of practical experience in a broad range of different tasks. When you start adding in primitives who don't have that range of experience, you have to make exceptions, like house-ruling something for trained vs. untrained skill use. Alternately, you could use some sort of ADSA rule system to create a Disadvantage: Primitive that limits what sorts of skills the character can use with that attribute.
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Whill
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| Posted: Sun Aug 22, 2021 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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It is a fundamental of the system that normal skills default to the attribute. Since characters aren't limited to using only skills they've allocated starting skill dice to or improved with CPs, attribute defaulting is inherent in the value of the attribute.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Disadvantage: Primitive that limits what sorts of skills the character can use with that attribute. |
Well, that's better than what RAW in R&E does with Ewoks in the "Skill limits" which only applies to PCs because it refers to beginning character skill allocation dice limits (no vehicle or starship operation or repair skills). But RAW allows primitive PCs, and those primitive Ewok PCs by background can still use attribute default in all those technological skills. They can start repairing a starship's hyperdrive with TEC 2D+2 the moment after stowing away on a ship. After they repair the hyperdrive, the PC can also use his planetary systems at default KNO 2D to help decide where the ship should go next, even though he has never been anywhere else in the galaxy. No prohibitions for starting skill dice allocations to computers, droids, security, and look at all the KNO rolls they can make with the same ability an average human who was born and raised in galactic society.
I just noticed that the Ewok PC template has the demolitions skill listed, so a starting Ewok PC can start with 4D+2 in demolitions not long first leaving Endor. (As ridiculous as it sounds, now I can't stop thinking about the Ewok demolitions expert character.)
RAW allows primitive PCs by background, but by the rules they aren't really primitive. For more realism, GMs can have a disadvantage system with a long list of skills they can't default in, but by that point they've severely hampered the value of affected attributes so much that the PC's actual total attribute value on the character sheet is effectively a lie. That's a whole lot of trouble just to have a primitive 18D character on paper.
A far simpler and more honest solution is to just not have primitive PCs. You want to play an Ewok? Sure. Just say the campaign starts three years after the character left the Forest Moon so the character has had time to acclimate to galactic civilization, and his 2D range KNO and TEC then actually make more sense with the character's background.
Primitive NPCs are easy if you consider 1D the minimum attribute to allow defaulting and give them 0D+1 or 0D+2 for attributes where they can learn skills that are 1D or higher, but may not be able to try unskilled things (attribute default) if they shouldn't be able to default, like common galactic knowledge and technologies.
Below is the latest thread I could find where Ewok PCs, primitive characters, and "0D attributes" was discussed.
https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=180949#180949
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Wouldn't you as a DM be applying modifiers to the TEC or MEC task at hand? Much like using the Con skill depends on the victim? Just as "Your own grandmother" is a very low difficulty number for a PC, that same woman could be a very high Con difficulty number for someone else. By the same token, routine maintenance on a landspeeder might be a very low difficulty number for a Smuggler, and a very high difficulty number for an Ewok. If the same con mark can represent different difficulty numbers for different people's relationships, so too can technology from an alien culture (ie, anything remotely electronic, to an Ewok) represent a higher difficulty number than technology from your own culture. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | This gets into what we were talking about here. The existing Attribute & Skill system is designed to represent well-rounded characters who have a varying degree of practical experience in a broad range of different tasks. When you start adding in primitives who don't have that range of experience, you have to make exceptions, like house-ruling something for trained vs. untrained skill use. Alternately, you could use some sort of ADSA rule system to create a Disadvantage: Primitive that limits what sorts of skills the character can use with that attribute. |
Sort of like
"Primitive = Disadvantage. Folks with this disadvantage, cannot have starting dice in any 'future' skill, such as blaster, repulsors, shields and ship pilotings', and even when they eventually get to learn those skills, it costs 2cp more, for the first two dice worth of pip increasing. Once the have at least 3 'futuristic skills', at 2d above attribute, they have effectivey bought off this disadvantage.."
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say instead go with a list of skills that Primitive Cultures can't use without spending CP to improve a skill first. However, I'd want to do it in a way that incorporates the character's natural aptitudes (Attributes) to represent how quickly the pick up the information. Say, a flat cost of 10 CP, minus the character's number of dice in an Attribute. Suppose there are two characters, each from the same primitive culture, but one has a Mech of 2D, and the other 4D. Neither can pilot a speeder without putting Dice in it, but one (the one with 4D) only has to spend 6 CP to learn, as opposed to the other's 8 CP.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Garkhal, I could see something like that making sense for skills that are TEC or MEC based but not DEX or STR based. Ie Blaster Repair yes, Blaster no. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Wouldn't you as a DM be applying modifiers to the TEC or MEC task at hand? Much like using the Con skill depends on the victim? Just as "Your own grandmother" is a very low difficulty number for a PC, that same woman could be a very high Con difficulty number for someone else. By the same token, routine maintenance on a landspeeder might be a very low difficulty number for a Smuggler, and a very high difficulty number for an Ewok. If the same con mark can represent different difficulty numbers for different people's relationships, so too can technology from an alien culture (ie, anything remotely electronic, to an Ewok) represent a higher difficulty number than technology from your own culture. |
Sure, but the way I have the skills on attributes, there are no Technical skills Ewoks would have primitive applications for. Technical skills all involve computerized technologies in my game. Primitive Construction is a Mechanical skill. Medicine is a Knowledge skill.
Regarding the ones that they may have applications for but not all, like Medicine, my 0D attribute system has an attribute where they can't have skills, where they can have skills at 1D or more but nothing ever defaults to attribute, and where some skills may default in some situations. Yes difficulty numbers can vary in some cases based on who is doing what. I've go it all covered.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Thu Aug 26, 2021 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Is this something that actually comes up for your players? Do you have Ewoks and such in your gaming group? |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'd say instead go with a list of skills that Primitive Cultures can't use without spending CP to improve a skill first. However, I'd want to do it in a way that incorporates the character's natural aptitudes (Attributes) to represent how quickly the pick up the information. Say, a flat cost of 10 CP, minus the character's number of dice in an Attribute. Suppose there are two characters, each from the same primitive culture, but one has a Mech of 2D, and the other 4D. Neither can pilot a speeder without putting Dice in it, but one (the one with 4D) only has to spend 6 CP to learn, as opposed to the other's 8 CP. |
Though if they are so primitive, why do they have a 4d Mech??
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Garkhal, I could see something like that making sense for skills that are TEC or MEC based but not DEX or STR based. Ie Blaster Repair yes, Blaster no. |
If they are so primitive, why could they have a blaster skill though?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Though if they are so primitive, why do they have a 4d Mech?? |
Hey, I didn’t make the character. Maybe he’s really good at handling a sailing ship or something.
EDIT: Beast Riding is under Mechanical, after all.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri Aug 27, 2021 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MrNexx
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Garkhal, I could see something like that making sense for skills that are TEC or MEC based but not DEX or STR based. Ie Blaster Repair yes, Blaster no. |
If they are so primitive, why could they have a blaster skill though? |
Point and click interface. Point and zort?
However, also, recall RotJ, where you have an Ewok brandishing a blaster during the Battle of Endor.
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TauntaunScout
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| Posted: Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | I'd say instead go with a list of skills that Primitive Cultures can't use without spending CP to improve a skill first. However, I'd want to do it in a way that incorporates the character's natural aptitudes (Attributes) to represent how quickly the pick up the information. Say, a flat cost of 10 CP, minus the character's number of dice in an Attribute. Suppose there are two characters, each from the same primitive culture, but one has a Mech of 2D, and the other 4D. Neither can pilot a speeder without putting Dice in it, but one (the one with 4D) only has to spend 6 CP to learn, as opposed to the other's 8 CP. |
Though if they are so primitive, why do they have a 4d Mech??
| TauntaunScout wrote: | | Garkhal, I could see something like that making sense for skills that are TEC or MEC based but not DEX or STR based. Ie Blaster Repair yes, Blaster no. |
If they are so primitive, why could they have a blaster skill though? |
Same reason colonized peoples could get the hang of rifles in a jiffy. It doesn't exactly take an Einstein. Using a gun is strictly empirical knowledge. It takes practice, but if you already use projectile weapons it doesn't require a major intellectual revolution like say, comprehension of finance & insurance when you don't know what money is. |
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