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WEG Stereotyped Aliens

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TauntaunScout
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Joined: 20 Apr 2015
Posts: 970

Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:18 pm Post subject:

I think the 51% answer is probably right. I just don't think it's that crazy that your natural species' abilities would pigeonhole you a bit. SOME dogs pull sleds and SOME miniature breed horses are service animals for the disabled. But more commonly, canines are service animals and equines are draft animals. A species is not an ethnic group. Especially in an economy where all labor has to compete with droids.

MrNexx
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Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio

Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:59 pm Post subject:

TauntaunScout wrote:

I am talking about the Star Wars toy collecting forums and the FFG games forums. When it comes up someone (or ones) always chimed in with "Oh no, not WEG where every member of a species is an expert at whatever we first saw them doing onscreen!".

Ironically, there's a very strong counter-example to this:

Wookies. Chewbacca is pretty much entirely against type.

We first see Chewie as a negotiator with Obi-wan, then as a co-pilot and mechanic, and then we get a line of dialog about them being unreasonably strong.

Wookies in WEG? Top-end, they're passable Technicians (1D/3D+1; not BAD, but not human average), passable pilots (1D/3D+2), and pretty lousy negotiators/scouts/trackers (1D/2D+1). Their ONLY better than human attribute is Strength, and their two racial features (Berserker Rage and Climbing Claws) we never see on screen in the OT (or any of the movies, that I can recall).
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CRMcNeill
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Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 1:25 pm Post subject:

Tbf, WEG fluff not matching WEG stats is a thread running throughout the system. My focus has been on the various starship stats, but the same argument could be made for the Alien Species write-ups. Personally, I'd rather see a D&D style alien stat modifier, with the character templates limited to careers and the like with the species modifiers overlaid on top of it. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996. The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

MrNexx
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Joined: 25 Mar 2016
Posts: 2248
Location: San Antonio

Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:32 pm Post subject:

CRMcNeill wrote:

Tbf, WEG fluff not matching WEG stats is a thread running throughout the system. My focus has been on the various starship stats, but the same argument could be made for the Alien Species write-ups.

Personally, I'd rather see a D&D style alien stat modifier, with the character templates limited to careers and the like with the species modifiers overlaid on top of it.

That would work quite well for me, too.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:43 pm Post subject:

MrNexx wrote:

[and their two racial features (Berserker Rage and Climbing Claws) we never see on screen in the OT (or any of the movies, that I can recall).

True on the claws, but in a way, wasn't what chewie did in ESB, when han was getting ready to get frozen, a light version of a berserker rage, till Leia calmed him down?
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Whill
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:52 pm Post subject:

garhkal wrote:

True on the claws, but in a way, wasn't what chewie did in ESB, when han was getting ready to get frozen, a light version of a berserker rage, till Leia calmed him down?

That's the scene that inspired the berserker rage ability. It was pointed out that in TFA, Chewie's finger tips are clearly visible in HD and there is no evidence of claws. In my SWU, I did away with the claws. Earth great apes do not have claws.

CRMcNeill wrote:

Tbf, WEG fluff not matching WEG stats is a thread running throughout the system.

It is very true that these things are often not in synch with each other, but you have it backwards. The WEG stats not matching the fluff is the issue. You start with the fluff, and stat from that. (I restat species to better match the fluff, just like you restat ships to better match the fluff.) This is an issue with WEG, but not the same issue as alien fluff and character stereotyping.

MrNexx wrote:

Chewie isn't against the type in WEG SW Sb fluff. In the case of Wookiees, the writer was full-on alien stereotype regarding the fluff statements of general Wookiee abilities, basing it on Chewbacca. The problem came in when they statted out the typical species with only 12D, the same as humans. To make them a lot stronger than humans, that brought other attribute downs. The reason they felt limited to 12D is because of the stupid rule of playing an alien PC by taking the typical attributes and adding 6D to them. If Wookiees were over 12D, then the PCs would be over 18D and PC game balance would become an issue under that rule.

For me, there were simple solutions to these issues. The first thing was to throw out the "+6D" rule. I made all PCs of any species have 18D in attributes regardless of species. That way restatted typical stats can fluctuate according to their fluff abilities.

The first thing I did for Wookiees specifically was raise the typical attribute total to 14D. I then I lowered the average Strength a bit. These things freed up a lot of dice to better reflect those statements that make Wookiees superior. But I did one more thing. In a rare case of altering fluff, I did remove the fluff statements that make Wookiees seem superior in technical abilities. The PT actually showed us the Wookiee homeworld and there is no evidence that Wookiees on average are superior to humans in technical abilities. They pointedly are more in tune with nature and rely on technology less. And this change also makes Chewbacca not quite so stereotyped, at least in that technical ability respect.
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MrNexx
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Joined: 25 Mar 2016
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:14 pm Post subject:

garhkal wrote:

MrNexx wrote:

[and their two racial features (Berserker Rage and Climbing Claws) we never see on screen in the OT (or any of the movies, that I can recall).

True on the claws, but in a way, wasn't what chewie did in ESB, when han was getting ready to get frozen, a light version of a berserker rage, till Leia calmed him down?

Eh. It's getting angry while the person he's sworn to protect is about to get maybe-killed in an industrial freezing chamber, only to get calmed down when someone else you're sworn to protect says "Hey, I'm still here".
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Whill
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:41 pm Post subject:

MrNexx wrote:

garhkal wrote:

MrNexx wrote:

[and their two racial features (Berserker Rage and Climbing Claws) we never see on screen in the OT (or any of the movies, that I can recall).

True on the claws, but in a way, wasn't what chewie did in ESB, when han was getting ready to get frozen, a light version of a berserker rage, till Leia calmed him down?

Yes but that is still the scene that inspired WEG to create the berserker rage ability in Wookiee stats. I did away with both claws and berserker rage in my Wookiee stats.
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CRMcNeill
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:32 pm Post subject:

Whill wrote:

It is very true that these things are often not in synch with each other, but you have it backwards.

I wasn't aware that putting the words in that order meant stats took primacy over fluff. The route I've gone with most of my stat rewrites indicates I believe the opposite to be true.

However, I'm also perfectly willing to throw out fluff if it conflicts with the films or other primary source.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

Whill
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Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 9:36 pm Post subject:

CRMcNeill wrote:

Tbf, WEG fluff not matching WEG stats is a thread running throughout the system...

Quote:

Whill wrote:

It is very true that these things are often not in synch with each other, but you have it backwards.

I wasn't aware that putting the words in that order meant stats took primacy over fluff.

People can read it that way, as if it said "fluff not following stats is an issue with WEG." Often, people read "A not matching B is an issue" with the inference that A is the one that should matching B. Stats were just newly brought into the discussion, and if anyone interpreted your statement as fluff should follow stats, I wanted to document for clarification that it was actually the other way around...

Quote:

The route I've gone with most of my stat rewrites indicates I believe the opposite to be true.

Yes you have, which I indicated later in the same paragraph that you quoted from above. That should prove I never thought otherwise. Maybe I should have added, "for the record" to my statement.

Quote:

However, I'm also perfectly willing to throw out fluff if it conflicts with the films or other primary source.

Me too. For an example, see a later post above about one aspect of the Wookiee fluff in the SW Sb that I did away with. (As I recall, you disagreed with my choice in a past thread. But that is neither here nor there.) When I asked in the OP if anyone threw out species fluff, I was asking if anyone threw it out because it was stereotypical.

Most species information is not reveled in the primary source, so for the CT it was largely up to WEG writers to fluff it out. In some cases, they wrote species fluff that made most or all members of the species like the character's film characteristics. In other cases, they took pure background characters and made matching character fluff and species fluff, which is a whole other level of typing.
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garhkal
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:17 am Post subject:

Whill wrote:

I do agree, that WEG buggered up, big time, in the "all aliens just have the same 12d, add 6d if pc.. IMO they could have made it that the 18d cap stayed the same, BUT The base alien had all sorts of attribute values, from say 9d for some of the weird ones that have LOTS of special abilities, up to say 14d for those who had none....
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Whill
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:06 pm Post subject:

garhkal wrote:

Whill wrote:

We agree exactly! Some species should have more than 12D for the typical attribute dice, and some species should have less. No way Ewoks should be 12D, for example.
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CRMcNeill
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 12:31 pm Post subject:

Whill wrote:

Some species should have more than 12D for the typical attribute dice, and some species should have less. No way Ewoks should be 12D, for example.

Sounds like a great excuse to use an ADSA system to generate balancing modifiers. Wookiees getting extra Attribute dice in trade for their language barrier and their slave status during the classic era seems a decent trade.

Also, as near as I can tell, WEG wasn't responsible for giving Wookiees claws. I've checked the available 1E Sources that are the most likely candidates for details of Wookiee characters and found no mention of them. In particular:

The first mention of Wookiees having claws is in Heir to the Empire, and WEGs subsequent 1E Sourcebook for HttE mentions Wookiee climbing claws, and adds them as a Natural Tools addendum to Chewbacca's character stats (while, curiously, omitting them from the two other Wookiee character stat blocks).

It looks like the real culprit for Wookiees being given claws is Timothy Zahn; WEG was just trying to ret-con the game to stay in sync with the EU.
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

Whill
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Posted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:09 pm Post subject:

CRMcNeill wrote:

Whill wrote:

Some species should have more than 12D for the typical attribute dice, and some species should have less. No way Ewoks should be 12D, for example.

Having the species vary in attribute dice and add appropriate special abilities is how it is done in RAW. The problem with RAW is not in the base system. It is just in how specific species are statted out.

Having every species start at 12D and then have each one have a modifier to attribute dice ends you up at the same exact place as the RAW system. So which one you go with is a matter of preference. Since the RAW system works fine the way it is and there are no advantages to changing it, my preference is to stick with the RAW system. All I have to do is restat the species that are off.

And with either system, an important point is that there doesn't need to be any sort of balance for NPCs, which are 99.999% of all characters of a species. The only time stats should be balanced is for PCs, which the RAW system doesn't really do. However PC species are a small subset of all species for any GM's game, so the balancing would only have to be done for certain species.

My system (somewhat influenced by D6 Space) has a "4D special abilities package" (which include advantages and disadvantages) for every species that are playable species, and the package is added to NPCs whatever their attribute dice and stats are. For PCs, it is added to their 18D of attributes and allocated skills. In a couple cases, the species package isn't worth 4D so it includes advantages that indicate "PC only" (normally bonus skill allocation dice at char gen) to balance out the PCs of the species with other PCs, not worrying about NPCs of the PCs being balanced with anything.

CRMcNeill wrote:

Also, as near as I can tell, WEG wasn't responsible for giving Wookiees claws. I've checked the available 1E Sources that are the most likely candidates for details of Wookiee characters and found no mention of them. In particular:

According to costuming, Wookiees don't even have finger nails. Smile

1e aliens didn't have special abilities in their stats. The first place WEG statted Wookiees out with the claws in their species abilities was Blue Vader 2e in 1992, the following year after the HttE novel release. So I agree that it was Zahn who first gave Wookiees the claws.

Personally, that fact doesn't make any difference to me. Large Earth primates do not have claws and some of them are still very arboreal. They have hands with strong grips and acute vision for brachiation. My Wookiees have all of that. In the game, with high Strengths, they have high climbing/jumping skills. They don't actually need claws. (But I did give them finger nails.) For me, The Thrawn Trilogy is like the s-canon of the old canon system. I can take things from it as I pick and choose, and leave the rest.

All GMs should feel empowered to restat RAW and even rewrite fluff as they see fit. If a GM wants Wookiees to have claws, they can.
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TauntaunScout
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Posted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:45 am Post subject:

Whill wrote:

No way Ewoks should be 12D, for example.

Why not? I'd imagine their STR, DEX and PER would be quite high.

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