The Last Jedi - Thoughts and Reactions

[garhkal]

[TauntaunScout]

I was really annoyed that they went on a side mission while being chased. It really hurt the film.

Also I've said it before and I'll say it again: "Those things are fleet killers" was one of the most cringe-worthy lines in all of Star Wars.

[Solo4114]

Re: Poe's behavior vis a vis Holdo

At one point, I thought "You could just replace Holdo with Ackbar," but at this point, I don't think you could while still achieving the same end results in the same manner.

Ackbar is known and -- we'd expect -- respected throughout the Resistance. If he says "Yes, there's a plan, but we're keeping it under wraps for security," I doubt Poe would dispute him. If he says "Here's the plan" and Poe disagrees with him, I think it's a lot less likely -- especially after Leia's dressing down and demotion -- that Poe would just go off and do his own thing.

With Holdo, though, it makes sense. My theory on this aspect of the film is that Holdo is meant to be off-putting, her appointment abrupt, and for the audience to get a sense of "Who the **** is this?!" I think all of this is by design to put the audience into Poe's same headspace.

We're conditioned in this type of film to expect the brash pilot's daring heroics to save the day and win them a medal and/or the girl (or whatever). We're not used to that pilot being all heroic and getting dressed down for it or -- worse -- failing utterly and costing resources/lives. We're also usually supposed to root for the pilot hero when they butt heads with a superior. All of that happens here, and the film then flips the script by saying "No, this pilot was an idiot who should've followed orders. Their brash decision hurt the cause they purport to defend and serve." It's supposed to be shocking and make you feel uncomfortable precisely because it takes advantage of your natural instincts in this kind of film.

There are plenty of reasons for Holdo to tell Poe to shut up, follow orders, and stop asking questions he doesn't need the answers to and isn't entitled to. But at the end of the day, he isn't entitled to know the answers to his questions. He's not the squadron leader anymore (I mean...there also isn't really a squadron to lead...) he's just another pilot now because he got a lot of people killed trying to destroy a big ship when the enemy has plenty of other big ships and the good guys can't afford to waste their resources.

But we're so used to seeing this stuff only from Poe's perspective, that we ignore all of that stuff and just assume Holdo is a traitor or a crappy leader or whatever. Maybe Holdo's a perfectly fine leader, but Poe's just a crappy follower in that he won't follow orders and actively sabotages the plan due to his stupidity.

But again...that's not how these movies are supposed to go. Poe is supposed to pull off the daring one-in-a-million-chance plan and win the day....isn't he? Well, not so much in this film.

Now, to be clear, I get why this sticks in folks' respective craws. I get why this is off-putting. I get why people look at this as not what they signed up for when they went to go see the film. I can also see why for a LOT of people, this technique really didn't work and may have been a mistake to try. I enjoyed it, but I also recognize that I went into this probably with different hopes for the franchise as a whole. But I don't think this storyline is done incompetently. I think it's more that it's done well but for a purpose that most people really do not care for.

I felt the same way about the exploration of Anakin's character in the perquel films. I didn't really want to see such a narrow focus on his journey to becoming Darth Vader and I didn't particularly like the plot points the film chose to highlight, usually at the expense of the larger war. I get what Lucas was trying to do, though, and I think he largely did it reasonably well...it just wasn't what I cared to see. I think a lot of that kind of sentiment is what's at play in this aspect of TLJ and with a lot of TLJ, actually.

[CRMcNeill]

The thing is, I've heard from several current and former military sci-fi fans, and to a man, they all agree that Holdo suffered a major failure of leadership. They word it better than I do, but to sum up, Holdo failed to maintain morale and unit cohesion during a major crisis, to the point where her subordinates lost faith in her command abilities and mutinied. We can argue the needs of the plot all day, but this just papers over the fact that the need to resolve a plot arc does not necessitate that it be resolved in that specific fashion.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[garhkal]

[Sutehp]

[Solo4114]

[Dredwulf60]

Solo4114;

Well written.

Sutehp;

I am not a military strategist; I was only a lowly infantry Sergeant (qualified up to Warrant Officer level tasks)...but I agree with you that Holdo should have disseminated her plan.

It isn't required of her to answer to the demands of her subordinates...but she should have issued what we would call an Operations Order. Or it's Star Wars Resistance army equivalent.

Boiled down, it is a briefing at the highest level which spells out the present situation with both friendly and enemy forces involved.

The purpose is to spell out what the commander wants done and who and how everyone is going to do it.

Each level then takes that order and zooms in a little on their own tasks, and issues their own orders, based on the Operations Orders and so on down to the basic rank and file.

So that everyone knows what they need to do and exactly how they are going to do it.

One of the most important concepts in the Operations Order, and as far as i know it is held in vital regard in all NATO countries at least....is for everyone to know the Commander's Intent. This is the end result...what the commander wants to ultimately accomplish.

This allows leaders at every level to use their own initiative without having to wait for permission to do something and lose vital time. Even if they have to modify the specific direction they had been given.

For example, the commander's overall intent is for his forces to occupy a town and then advance to the next town the following morning to attack the enemy.
A small patrol is ordered to set up an observation post to watch for enemy coming down the road. Because they are small and their job is to observe and report, they are directed not to engage the enemy.

While watching the road for a possible enemy advance, they observe a small enemy patrol setting explosives to blow up a bridge.

Orders: Do not engage; observe and report enemy action.
Commanders intent: To move down that road the next morning (making use of that bridge).

The recce commander may report what the enemy is doing...and wait for it to go up the chain of command...and back down again with direction, by which time the bridge might be destroyed.
OR he might order his troops to engage the enemy to keep them from blowing the bridge, even though it is against the written orders given.

So, having said all that; Holdo should have issued detailed operations orders, including her overall intent as Commander so that every subordinate knew the plan and how they were able to support it.

The idea of the operational security needed...doesn't really hold water for me at that level. You either trust your people, or you don't.

The men going in on D-Day in WWII knew the plan, despite incredible Operational Security for that invasion.

[Whill]

[garhkal]

[Solo4114]

[Sutehp]

[cheshire]

[Sutehp]

[Whill]