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Hyperspace
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ebertran
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:43 pm    Post subject: Hyperspace Reply with quote

Looks like TFA has seriously changed the way hyperspace works in SW. It disregards travel times between systems, down time, etc.

I'm just going to ignore hyperspace rules in my future d6 games from now on.

I mean, there's even a scene where pilots are waiting in hyperspace and are told when to drop out of it. What?
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My take is they were circling the planet
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But how can you circle in hyperspace??
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:36 am    Post subject: Re: Hyperspace Reply with quote

ebertran wrote:
Looks like TFA has seriously changed the way hyperspace works in SW. It disregards travel times between systems, down time, etc.

I'm just going to ignore hyperspace rules in my future d6 games from now on.

I mean, there's even a scene where pilots are waiting in hyperspace and are told when to drop out of it. What?
jmanski wrote:
My take is they were circling the planet
garhkal wrote:
But how can you circle in hyperspace??

You seem incredulous. You must unlearn what you have learned. In TFA, they Rebel X-Wings were indeed waiting in hyperspace and came out of hyperspace when given the signal to do so.

However, you don't necessarily have to disregard hyperspace rules because of this. One possibility is, this is something new that has been discovered in the intervening 30 years since RotJ. I remember a thread where it was discussed that hyperspace buoys which can float still in hyperspace exist in the EU, and the possibility of a ship being parked in hyperspace hiding from detection in real space. However I personally don't care for the idea of something not moving in hyperspace, where the norm is traveling thousands of times the speed of light. Like Jmanski, my take was that the Resistance X-Wings were circling the Starkiller planet in hyperspace until they got the signal to revert to real space.

It's never explicitly indicated by canon that you can't do that. How can it be done? Just because. That's how. Or, because <insert scientific gobbledegook here>. But regardless of how, it can be done, at least by 30 years after RotJ. And hyperspace travel times have always been the speed of plot. It's amazing that the Falcon gets from the far and distance Tatooine to a Core World in a very short time in ANH. In the prequels Obi-Wan is likewise zipping all over the galaxy (and out of the galaxy) in no time flat. TFA does not change anything in that respect.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, something could have changed in 30 years, that allows for it.. but based on what we DO know from the books/novels, i still call baloney on it.
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DarthOmega
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My questioning wasn't about any of that that personally - it was more the going into and coming out of hyperspace while in the gravity shadow of another object which by all accounts up until this point has been impossible. I think this may be a an Abramism much like his transporter shenanigans in the new Star Trek movies (which was also impossible based on previous Trek canon). He really likes to mess with established canon rules when it comes to these things and that is my biggest complaint about him and anything he decides to mess with.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though the only time you see someone try to do an approach at lightspeed, everyone else said, "WE'RE GOING TO WHAT!?!?!?!" It's the ship's safety mechanisms that are supposed to make it impossible to move through light speed past their mass shadow so you don't "fly right through a star or bounce to close to a supernova." Han was doing something crazy enough that he didn't even tell Leia that he was giving it a shot. Disable all the safety mechanisms and try a one in a million approach.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthOmega wrote:
I think this may be a an Abramism much like his transporter shenanigans in the new Star Trek movies (which was also impossible based on previous Trek canon). He really likes to mess with established canon rules when it comes to these things...


Oh, I don't doubt that he's ever even opened a WEG sourcebook. I'll bet he had no idea that there was a canon establishment of that idea. That's why they made "legends" just before the movie.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is EU precedent for objects remaining stationary in hyperspace, particularly for hypercomm relay satellites and stasis recon probes, both of which could jump into hyperspace, but remain motionless while there. The general consensus at the time was that to do one or the other required different types of drive mechanisms (I.e. a hyperdrive required movement, while a hyper-tether required motionlessness).

I compare it to flight before the invention of the helicopter. You either had balloons, which provided lift, but were practically stationary, or you had airplanes, which allowed movement, but had to keep moving to stay in the air. Then, as technology advanced, along came things like blimps, zeppelins, helicopters, tilt-rotors, ducted thrust jets and the like, all of which allow craft to both hover and move quickly (relatively speaking)
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthOmega wrote:
My questioning wasn't about any of that that personally - it was more the going into and coming out of hyperspace while in the gravity shadow of another object which by all accounts up until this point has been impossible. I think this may be a an Abramism much like his transporter shenanigans in the new Star Trek movies (which was also impossible based on previous Trek canon). He really likes to mess with established canon rules when it comes to these things and that is my biggest complaint about him and anything he decides to mess with.

When I was a high school freshmen watching The Voyage Home, I didn't think a ship could enter warp in an atmosphere, but a Klingon Bird of Prey did exactly that. And the transport-at-warp "Abramism" you refer to was explained as Scotty of the 24th century had perfected the formula for the first time and given it to Spock who took it back in time to the alternate reality. Plenty of Star Trek episodes show them doing something for the first time that wasn't previously believed possible. In my favorite TV episode, "The Naked Time", Scotty and Spock mix matter and antimatter cold for the first time ever and achieve time warp. That first aired in 1966. Abrams was not breaking new ground in introducing new things that had never been done in general, only specific new things in a long list of new things that came before him. That's a given in the Trek franchise since the 60s.

cheshire wrote:
Though the only time you see someone try to do an approach at lightspeed, everyone else said, "WE'RE GOING TO WHAT!?!?!?!" It's the ship's safety mechanisms that are supposed to make it impossible to move through light speed past their mass shadow so you don't "fly right through a star or bounce to close to a supernova." Han was doing something crazy enough that he didn't even tell Leia that he was giving it a shot. Disable all the safety mechanisms and try a one in a million approach.

I agree. It had been established by film canon (by Han Solo's dialogue in ANH no less) that real space objects of matter are dangerous to ships traveling through hyperspace. However the gravity well thing was not established by films. In the WEG 1e module Battle for the Golden Sun, the Golden Sun entity causes a ship's gravity well sensors to falsely read the planet it is on as a supermassive star, and the only way you could approach the planet was to disengage the safety protocols that would cause a hyperspace cut-out and go a bit further. That's what I through of when Han came out of hyperspace inside the planetary shields of the Starkiller planet. The shields being energy and not matter may not have a gravity shadow in hyperspace. Did Han fly inside the Starkiller's gravity well in hyperspace? Yes. Did he fly through the planet in hyperspace which would have been instant death for all on board? Close, but no. The gravity well thing may be a built-in safety feature of hyperspace travel that can be overridden. It is extremely dangerous and risky because deadly massive objects of matter are inside of gravity wells and that's what you are trying to avoid hitting. Han didn't necessarily even come out of hyperspace in the atmosphere, just right before they hit atmo because there always is an extreme deceleration shown when reentering real space.

I thought the scene was fresh and exciting, and did not violate any film canon at all. Thanks, JJ! Something George probably would have never thought of doing.
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DarthOmega
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info Whill, I actually was not aware that they had actually covered that in Trek canon in the past, or didn't remember. There are a LOT of Trek episodes if you figure all of the T.V. series and that's not to mention the pre-Abrams movies.

As for the Hyperspace trick, I knew that it was primarily a safety mechanism in most ships to automatically drop out of hyperspace when coming close to a gravity well, but I was under the impression that it couldn't be removed/turned off. Now granted this was never mentioned in the movies OR the cartoons, but in the EU in which Interdictor cruisers were a thing, I would figure that most anti-Imperials would just turn that off (or have it removed entirely) to avoid being caught, which means that Interdictors would have been pointless, and obviously they were not. I guess this is one of those areas where I have to try and unlearn what I have learned, at least in context of the new canon and movies. Pity that considering I LOVE Interdictors.

I do agree with you though Whill - they were fun moments in the movie, especially when he jumps to Hyperspace while docked in the ship with that creature on the cockpit. The effect of it being torn away as they hit Hyperspace was great. And don't get me wrong, I enjoy Abrams stuff, always have, and the new movie is no exception. Honestly I was feeling some trepidation with which way Disney was going to go with the new canon and such, but now after seeing Force Awakens, for the time being, I feel that the franchise is in capable hands.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarthOmega wrote:
As for the Hyperspace trick, I knew that it was primarily a safety mechanism in most ships to automatically drop out of hyperspace when coming close to a gravity well, but I was under the impression that it couldn't be removed/turned off. Now granted this was never mentioned in the movies OR the cartoons, but in the EU in which Interdictor cruisers were a thing, I would figure that most anti-Imperials would just turn that off (or have it removed entirely) to avoid being caught, which means that Interdictors would have been pointless, and obviously they were not. I guess this is one of those areas where I have to try and unlearn what I have learned, at least in context of the new canon and movies. Pity that considering I LOVE Interdictors.

Well, overriding the fail-safe was a part of the EU from the very beginning since it was at least introduced by WEG in the 80s. There are a couple ways you could go with the Interdictor...

Remember that it is extremely dangerous to disengage the gravity well sensor/hyperdrive cut-out. It is there for a reason to prevent you from crashing into a rogue asteroid or something in your path that wasn't plotted out by the navicomputer when calculating the jump. So you would not want to just fly around without the fail-safe to avoid being captured by interdictors in general. You could rule that you could get by an Interdictor that you knew was there by intentionally disengaging the fail-safe cut-out. Of course if you know it is there in advance, you could also just plot a course around it, so the point of using an Interdictor is surprise. If you aren't expecting an Interdictor to be near your path through hyperspace, then you are not going to turn off the fail-safe and the Interdictor will still work.

The other option is that Interdictors can can make a ship think it hit a matter object, which drops it out of hyperspace without destroying it even if the fail-safe is turned off. But like I said above, it would be stupid to just fly around with it off just on the off-chance that an Interdictor might be in your path, so

I think I'll stick with the first option of Interdictors working because most ships most of the time will have the gravity well sensor hyperdrive cut-out fail-safe on. I think it would even be reasonable to require Technical roll to properly disengage the fail-safe (that is a default safety feature inherent in all hyperspace capable ships).
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Mojomoe
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I missed it, but are there rules for hyperspace jumps with the safeties off?
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:


Remember that it is extremely dangerous to disengage the gravity well sensor/hyperdrive cut-out. It is there for a reason to prevent you from crashing into a rogue asteroid or something in your path that wasn't plotted out by the navicomputer when calculating the jump. So you would not want to just fly around without the fail-safe to avoid being captured by interdictors in general. You could rule that you could get by an Interdictor that you knew was there by intentionally disengaging the fail-safe cut-out.

That was almost exactly my thought.

Whill wrote:

Of course if you know it is there in advance, you could also just plot a course around it, so the point of using an Interdictor is surprise. If you aren't expecting an Interdictor to be near your path through hyperspace, then you are not going to turn off the fail-safe and the Interdictor will still work.


I think what you mean is, "No one expects the Imperial interdiction!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAn7baRbhx4
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Imperial Interdiction?

Their chief weapon is surprise. Surprise - and fear! Fear, and surprise. Their two weapons are fear and surprise - and ruthless efficiency! Their three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency - and an almost fanatical devotion to the Emperor!

Their four... no... Amongst their weaponry are such elements as fear, surprise ...
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