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Hyperspace
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Instead of disregarding hyperspace rules, disregard J.J. Abrams. I like his movies quite a bit, but continuity has always been his week spot. He's an excellent storyteller, he simply needs a better editor to make us geeks happy.

Or we geeks can come up with a working explanation when the movie makers take liberties with canon
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Or we geeks can come up with a working explanation when the movie makers take liberties with canon

Done and done.
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Rusharn
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2016 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So reading this thread no one has yet to explain the hiding in hyperspace.

The reason I bring this up is because my current game does take place 30 years after RToJ and a pair of my players want to do exactly that, quoting that Bo Dameran did it in episode VII.

In game, most of the group is trying to escape from a planet that has a heavily guarded research facility that they just blasted their way out of, but they know there is no way they can get their freighter in space before the TIE Interceptors at the base catch them and shoot them down. So the players are going to bail their ship (they are still working on the details of this), but two of the players went to another planet in the system to pay off their loan shark, so were not with the other players when they engaged in their antics at the research base.

They want these two players to get a hyperspace capable ship and hide near by the planet in hyperspace until they call. The communication thing I can accept as there is the holo net that allows instantaneous communication seeming any where in the galaxy, and I recall in some episodes of clone wars of capital ships receiving commands while in hyper space. So sure Bo and his group had special comms gear that allowed that. Their answer to the communications issue is that one of their force sensitive characters has Projective Telepathy so they send and impression when they are ready to get picked up.

What still hasn't been explained is the hiding in Hyperspace. My impression was you could only go in straight lines in hyperspace. Ok fine, there are the hyperspace satellites that remained stationary but they jumped in at the place they were staying, which means if Bo and his group were stationary then they would have to be really close to the Starkiller when they did that. If they were circling around the Star Killer, then that causes more questions, like how tight of a circle can you make? Can you change course while you are in hyperspace? More so if they are circling the Star Killer there is a near by sun, does that mean that while you are in hyper space the radiation from said sun doesn't affect you? How about solar winds or flares? What about particles thrown off from the sun?

Another problem with this scene is that it changes the entire nature of warfare in Star Wars. If a fleet or raider can just linger close to your planets hiding in hyperspace while a scout gives the attack command, this would make raiding and surprise attacks almost impossible to stop or avoid as well as allow a reliable precision of timing that has never been demonstrated before in any Star Wars material I can recall.

My players already want to jump to hyperspace in a planet's atmosphere because Han Solo came out of hyperspace in atmosphere. Which goes in to the ludicrousness of that scene. How far out from the Star Killer's surface has the energy shield? How close was the Falcon when it came out of hyperspace? Watching the scene it looks like it was IN the atmosphere.

What was the speed of the Falcon when it hit the atmosphere? How did the Falcon resist the heat of a reentry like that? How did the scanners of the Star Killer not detect something going near the speed of light coming through the atmosphere? Where are the shock waves, sonic booms?

Star Wars is in a Galaxy far, far away, not in another dimension where the laws of physics are entirely different. JJ Abrams's total disregard for even basic physics is why he is one of the worst Sci Fi writers and directors out there. Techno Fantasy can only deflect things so far, and the excuse of speed of plot does not fill plot holes and mend the logical tears in your setting.

For me it was the reason Episode VII was just bad, because it could not suspend my disbelief, on almost any point of plot or action in the movie. The thing is I hate saying to my players, to completely disregard the only Star Wars movie they have seen.
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JironGhrad
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rusharn wrote:
So reading this thread no one has yet to explain the hiding in hyperspace.

The reason I bring this up is because my current game does take place 30 years after RToJ and a pair of my players want to do exactly that, quoting that Bo Dameran did it in episode VII.

In game, most of the group is trying to escape from a planet that has a heavily guarded research facility that they just blasted their way out of, but they know there is no way they can get their freighter in space before the TIE Interceptors at the base catch them and shoot them down. So the players are going to bail their ship (they are still working on the details of this), but two of the players went to another planet in the system to pay off their loan shark, so were not with the other players when they engaged in their antics at the research base.

They want these two players to get a hyperspace capable ship and hide near by the planet in hyperspace until they call. The communication thing I can accept as there is the holo net that allows instantaneous communication seeming any where in the galaxy, and I recall in some episodes of clone wars of capital ships receiving commands while in hyper space. So sure Bo and his group had special comms gear that allowed that. Their answer to the communications issue is that one of their force sensitive characters has Projective Telepathy so they send and impression when they are ready to get picked up.

What still hasn't been explained is the hiding in Hyperspace. My impression was you could only go in straight lines in hyperspace. Ok fine, there are the hyperspace satellites that remained stationary but they jumped in at the place they were staying, which means if Bo and his group were stationary then they would have to be really close to the Starkiller when they did that. If they were circling around the Star Killer, then that causes more questions, like how tight of a circle can you make? Can you change course while you are in hyperspace? More so if they are circling the Star Killer there is a near by sun, does that mean that while you are in hyper space the radiation from said sun doesn't affect you? How about solar winds or flares? What about particles thrown off from the sun?

Another problem with this scene is that it changes the entire nature of warfare in Star Wars. If a fleet or raider can just linger close to your planets hiding in hyperspace while a scout gives the attack command, this would make raiding and surprise attacks almost impossible to stop or avoid as well as allow a reliable precision of timing that has never been demonstrated before in any Star Wars material I can recall.

My players already want to jump to hyperspace in a planet's atmosphere because Han Solo came out of hyperspace in atmosphere. Which goes in to the ludicrousness of that scene. How far out from the Star Killer's surface has the energy shield? How close was the Falcon when it came out of hyperspace? Watching the scene it looks like it was IN the atmosphere.

What was the speed of the Falcon when it hit the atmosphere? How did the Falcon resist the heat of a reentry like that? How did the scanners of the Star Killer not detect something going near the speed of light coming through the atmosphere? Where are the shock waves, sonic booms?

Star Wars is in a Galaxy far, far away, not in another dimension where the laws of physics are entirely different. JJ Abrams's total disregard for even basic physics is why he is one of the worst Sci Fi writers and directors out there. Techno Fantasy can only deflect things so far, and the excuse of speed of plot does not fill plot holes and mend the logical tears in your setting.

For me it was the reason Episode VII was just bad, because it could not suspend my disbelief, on almost any point of plot or action in the movie. The thing is I hate saying to my players, to completely disregard the only Star Wars movie they have seen.


1. It's Poe, not Bo.

2. If you read the thread, it was reasonably concluded that Han dropped the MF out of hyperspace "between" the energy shield and atmosphere. It stands to reason that shield technology wouldn't function directly against the hull (it's not like polarizing from ST: Enterprise) but rather (as in the case of the 2nd Death Star) the shield is a bubble with some distance between it and whatever it's protecting.

3. To answer your questions re: sitting in hyperspace making raids/communication unavoidable; consider that ships might not be stationary, AND that we don't know the degree of precision available on exit. We don't know where in relation to the planet the Resistance ships exited from their hyperspace jump. I would argue that for their purposes, "where" wasn't exactly relevant and so would be far less complicated to arrange. I'd also suggest that actually trying a jump like Han Solo managed would take a heroic++ level roll to succeed: because if it wasn't that hard, why didn't the entire Resistance fleet do it?

I would suggest that you need to reconsider this as an official "answers provided" source to rather a "reasonable explanation" source. You're not going to get unequivocal evidence that things work a certain way, because we simply don't have all the facts to prove things in most cases. We do use the scientific method to reach conclusions based on available evidence.

That all said, we're working from a very limited set of data (7 movies, handful of TV shows) trying to explain things that do not follow science as we currently understand it; I think we do a damn good job here all that considered. With that, I'll leave you with this: just because we never saw anyone linger in hyperspace (stationary or otherwise) doesn't mean it wasn't always possible. It just means that there was never a good reason for the particular people we followed through the story to do that. AND: the weakness of the scientific method is that it is exclusively reliant upon the ability to measure (that is "prove") and many dedicated scientists forget that lack of evidence, is not evidence of lack.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or, you know, don't think that they're stationary in Hyperspace - they've just really dialed their multiplier waaaaayyy up there. Which amounts to about the same thing, but with different rationales.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rusharn wrote:

Their answer to the communications issue is that one of their force sensitive characters has Projective Telepathy so they send and impression when they are ready to get picked up.


What would the proximity modifiers be for being in hyperspace though?

Rusharn wrote:

What still hasn't been explained is the hiding in Hyperspace. My impression was you could only go in straight lines in hyperspace. Ok fine, there are the hyperspace satellites that remained stationary but they jumped in at the place they were staying, which means if Bo and his group were stationary then they would have to be really close to the Starkiller when they did that. If they were circling around the Star Killer, then that causes more questions, like how tight of a circle can you make? Can you change course while you are in hyperspace? More so if they are circling the Star Killer there is a near by sun, does that mean that while you are in hyper space the radiation from said sun doesn't affect you? How about solar winds or flares? What about particles thrown off from the sun?


Its questions lie that which make me want to Ignore all we saw from TFA in relation to hyperspace...
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Rusharn
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2016 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know Han came out of hyperspace on the other side of the force field but if you watch the scene, Han goes into the atmosphere while IN light speed. When he comes out he is already right there against a mountain clearly well within the atmosphere. Up to this point, you accelerate and decelerate into and out of hyperspace. This means at some point, no matter how short of a time, he is at just a faction below light speed. Last time I checked my physics the heat transfer of something like a 5 gram meteorite going at a quarter of light speed at a 90 degree angle translated to something like thirty or forty thousand lighting bolts within the faction of the second it takes to travel through the atmosphere.

The Falcon is a lot larger than a 5 gram meteorite.

So assuming that the Falcon has something to protect it from the heat effect of atmospheric friction, I am not sure how the side effects of a reentry like that could not be noticed by the staff of the Star Killer. Just quickly ball parking numbers in my head I think we're talking energy that exceeds atomic weapon explosions. Again how does the Falcon survive, and how does the First Order not notice?

More so at what point of contact does the intersection of something in hyperspace interact with mass of the real space. From Clone Wars I was under the impression you could not hyperspace through a Nebula without being destroyed. If that is the case shouldn't a gaseous atmosphere of a planet pose the same dangers?

While I like the idea of dialing down of the hyperdrive multiplier, that still means there would have needed to be an amount of timing involved.

"Han, we're going to creep through hyperspace but that means you're going to have to take out the shields in this time window or we'll come out too short, or we'll over shoot."

There wasn't any indication of that type of time constraint but at least I can say to my players, that the discussion about that was off screen and it retains the difficulties of timing in the Star Wars Universe for fleet and space actions.

The hyperspacing in behind a planetary defense screen into atmosphere is still an issue. In my game the bad guys have a dozen NPCs with stats similar to Han Solo not to mention if Han by himself can figure it out, then a military think tank can as well. What keeps the massive super military of the First Order or the Empire for that matter from loading up three or four hundred light freighter sized missiles with Nuclear, Biological, Chemical weapons or all the above and aim them at a planet and have them come out of hyperspace right inside their defense gird, and at the fraction of the cost of a Death Star or Star Killer.

Even if only a faction of such weapons succeed they can cause a lot of damage and to be more effective all you would need is to increase the number of the attacking objects. Of course Han was free wheeling it in the Falcon, the weapons that a super military would come up with would be designed for the task, supported by think tanks and mainframes whose only job it is to calculate said attacks.

That is assuming you can't preform the same maneuver with something larger like a Star Destroyer. There is already a thread on the effects of ships of that size crashing into a planet, imagine the energy of a mile long object hitting a planet at any notable fraction of light speed.

Again, I am fine with reasonable answers but there are times in TFA where even the basic laws of physic are shown to be in flux with out even a reasonable techno babble hand wave to explain how we can be seeing what we are seeing. Even worse is the logical application of what we are seeing on screen. In the case of Han Solo coming out of hypersapce within a planetary shield within the atmosphere of a planet is the start of a new line of cost effective super weapons.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two words: JJ Abrams.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as hyper-jumping in under the shields goes, Wanted by Cracken included detailed rules for the Interdictor, in that the closer you got to the center of a gravity well, the more difficult it became to make the jump into hyperspace. For this, I'd apply it in reverse. Start with the RAW's rule of 50 SU's from a planet as the minimum safe distance, then increase the Difficulty as you get closer to the planet. The grade of Difficulty would need to be structured so that a close-up jump (practically on top of the planet) would be insanely difficult, and not something you would just use on every smuggling run to dodge patrols.

You'd also need to establish at what altitude planetary shields operate, and how that would translate into distance in SUs for calculating Difficulty.

As far as the X-Wings holding in hyperspace, I have a theory for that, too.

In Galladinium's Fantastic Technology, there is an experimental device called the N-CRAB (Nav-Computer Route Astrogation Bypass) that allows ships to alter to a new hyperspace course without dropping into real space to recalculate. The tech is clunky and glitchy as of the Classic Era, but thirty years' time could have allowed it to be refined sufficiently to be installed in military and high-end civilian vessels.

So here's my idea:
    1). X-Wings jump to hyperspace headed for Starkiller Base.

    2). En route, they use their Nav-Computers to plot a new course that takes them into a wide polar orbit around Starkiller Base's star, passing near the base itself on every orbit.

    3). Han's signal goes out by hyperradio, which can be picked up by the X-Wings while still in hyperspace, letting them know the shields are down, and to drop out of hyperspace and commence attack on their next orbit.

It's bare bones, and requires some suspension of disbelief to the effect that technology advancements allow things to happen in the TFA era that were not possible in the Classic Era.

As far as Leia and the Resistance monitoring the attack in real-time from the galaxy, I'd rule that, unlike during the Rebellion, the Resistance had access to the Holonet, and were monitoring the real-time take from a stealth scout ship (likely the same one whose recon run provided the pre-arranged briefing information; he stayed on station to monitor and provide updates, which is how the Resistance knew the First Order was recharging the Improbability Cannon).

EDIT: Psst. Hey, Whill...
Quote:
"Once the weapon reaches infinite Improbability, its beam passes simultaneously through every point in the universe! Be the envy of other major governments!"

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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Psst. Hey, Whill...
Quote:
"Once the weapon reaches infinite Improbability, its beam passes simultaneously through every point in the universe! Be the envy of other major governments!"

I really need to re-read HhGttG again!
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's my new name for it. Henceforth, the TFA Starkiller Base superweapon shall be known in all my writings as the Improbability Cannon (this is distinct from J. J. Abrams' other creation: the Improbability Canon).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmanski wrote:
Two words: JJ Abrams.


Technically that's three.

Quote:
In Galladinium's Fantastic Technology, there is an experimental device called the N-CRAB (Nav-Computer Route Astrogation Bypass) that allows ships to alter to a new hyperspace course without dropping into real space to recalculate. The tech is clunky and glitchy as of the Classic Era, but thirty years' time could have allowed it to be refined sufficiently to be installed in military and high-end civilian vessels.


Interesting idea. Especially after reading that item.. Honestly i must have consistently glossed over it, as i can't remember seeing it before..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or maybe the Infinite Improbability Cannon...

It would explain quite a bit, actually.

The cannon would likely need an Improbability shield to keep that massive gap on the equator from collapsing in on itself...

The cannon's Improbability field could cause all kinds of freak occurrences due to rising and falling probability levels as it powered up.

This could explain how Rey knew how to pilot the Falcon, how Han and Chewie just happened to be in the Jakku system when the Falcon was active, how Mas Kanata had Anakin's lightsaber...

These weren't coincidences at all; the Infinite Improbability Cannon's probability field level was offsetting the Improbability of all these happening, thus making the improbable not just likely, but almost certain.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri May 27, 2016 10:59 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rusharn
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And the Improbability Cannon makes a whole lot more sense for explanations of events in TFA.

But thank you for bringing up the N-CRAB I had not remembered that bit of technology. Maintaining that the technology may be refined but costs are still prohibitive for larger operations such a fleet, or low end one like most pirates now moves what Poe and his X-wings did into extreme prep work, as well could explain why they didn't have more fighters available for the attack. However now that we know that adjusting course in Hyperspace is a possibility, What type of defenses could a system set up to thwart such a tactic? Gravity well generators would be my thought but if you can override the gravity safeties on hyper drives I don't think that would work. I was thinking maybe a mono molecular net made of high density material the could be setup, like the sub nets for World War II, Hard to detect so a Cloaked or sensor dead ship approaching from out side the registered space lanes hits it and it alerts the defense grid.

Are their any rules for colliding with an object in hyperspace? I mean even if colliding with a net did light damage, that could be enough to discourage the tactic. If the damage is a lot more substantial then it would be a tactic that could only be used if they system didn't use said nets.

But that returns to how do objects in real space interact with objects in hyperspace? In between systems you can assume that there is not a lot of objects to collide with, but once you approach star systems especially ones that have space faring races you have a lot more possibilities of colliding with an object. Mirco meteorites, gases, space debris, other ships, Etc.

As for my players I have informed them that hyperspacing into and out of atmosphere does not work in my universe. That as they accelerate or decelerate, the atmospheric friction will guarantee the destruction of their ship. This also discourages any bypassing of planetary shields as I set them at the edge of atmosphere. That may open up the possibility on an object with no atmosphere but that will be something I'll have more control over and make it more of a special situation that can only be use in specific circumstances. Once I explained that if hyperspacing behind planetary shield was a possibility it would mean that it would be that much harder in the future to protect the Republic, they opted to again regard TFA as New Republic propaganda.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or maybe set the difficulty of doing it somewhere around 200.

And assume Han must have spent a Force point...and rolled '6' on the wild die several dozen times in a row. Smile

Then it's still theoretically possible...but no one's going to be trying it again any time soon.
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