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Bren
Vice Admiral

Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:41 am Post subject:

ZzaphodD wrote:

It never fails to amaze me how you guys try to find a 'in universe' logic and reason based on the movies and a zillion EU product, with almost as many authors. Even with just the movies its a moot point.

I look at it as a kind of mental gymnastics. As long as you enjoy the excercise and don't work out to excess it can be fun. Wink

Nico_Davout
Commander

Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Posts: 384
Location: Sevilla, Spain

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:17 pm Post subject:

ZzaphodD wrote:

The logic is out there...somewhere, far, far away....
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:17 pm Post subject:

I agree. it is fun at times trying to find out why this or that was done way Y.. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering

Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16178
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:44 pm Post subject:

I think my biggest disappointment with grenades in the SWU is how mundane they seem. After all, this is the SWU, where there is all kinds of neat tech based on advanced science. And then there are Fragmentation Grenades, which have been around in various forms on this planet for over one hundred years. I would've liked it more if WEG had made them Proton Grenades or Concussion Grenades or Plasma Grenades, or anything that sounded sufficiently "high-tech", not something that I can buy in inert form at the local Army Navy store. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996. The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

Bren
Vice Admiral

Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:54 pm Post subject:

crmcneill wrote:

I think my biggest disappointment with grenades in the SWU is how mundane they seem. After all, this is the SWU, where there is all kinds of neat tech based on advanced science. And then there are Fragmentation Grenades, which have been around in various forms on this planet for over one hundred years. I would've liked it more if WEG had made them Proton Grenades or Concussion Grenades or Plasma Grenades, or anything that sounded sufficiently "high-tech", not something that I can buy in inert form at the local Army Navy store.

Is your primary concern the effect or the name? If the latter just call them proton grenades or whatever. It does sound more Star Warsy than frag gredade. If the concern is the effect, there are a number of special purpose Star Wars grenades, but with the exception of an ionization grenade they all seem based on real world devices.

Truth in Trivia: real world grenades are far older than even 100 years ago. They date back about 1000 years or so for explosive grenades and even longer for incindiary grenades.

CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering

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Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:09 pm Post subject:

Bren wrote:

It's a little of both, I guess. A grenade that explodes and throws off pieces of jagged metal is little different than modern fragmentation grenades, but a grenade that explodes in a spherical energy discharge is not only more technologically advanced, it's more effective against characters wearing armor (referencing the ~1D difference between an armor's effectiveness against physical and energy attacks). Changing the name of a grenade = changing the technology = potentially changing the weapon's effectiveness in-universe.

Quote:

Truth in Trivia: real world grenades are far older than even 100 years ago. They date back about 1000 years or so for explosive grenades and even longer for incindiary grenades.

I thought it was something like that; I just wasn't feeling motivated enough to look up Grenade on Wikipedia.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector

Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14034
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:07 pm Post subject:

Well we do have nice grenades.. such as the glop, stun, gas and my personal fave, the TD!!!! _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!

Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)

Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10297
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

Posted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:49 pm Post subject:

ZzaphodD wrote:

It never fails to amaze me how you guys try to find a 'in universe' logic and reason based on the movies and a zillion EU product, with almost as many authors.

In know! Isn't it awesome?! I love in-universe explainations for things in SW and the other SW fans here that also provide in-universe explainations. It not only makes Star Wars seem more real, but it also gives me more ammunition for all those detractors out there that maintain Star Wars is loaded with plot holes, contradictions and inexplicable things. Everything (at least in the films) makes perfect sense... from a certain point of view. I very much appreciate the efforts for explaining the EU as well, but I don't buy all of that myself.

So far I'm still not sold on grenades existing in my Star Wars universe, but I enjoy the discussion!

ZzaphodD wrote:

Even with just the movies its a moot point.

Not quite sure what you mean by that last sentence. What exactly is a moot point regarding the movies?
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Fallon Kell
Commodore

Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:01 am Post subject:

crmcneill wrote:

I would've liked it more if WEG had made them Proton Grenades or Concussion Grenades or Plasma Grenades, or anything that sounded sufficiently "high-tech", not something that I can buy in inert form at the local Army Navy store.

True, but then again, slug throwers are popular out here in Wildspace, so a frag grenade is not unthinkable. But I think I may be able to help...

I run several kinds of grenades with varying damages and radii. In ascending order of price, frags have large radii, blast grenades have high damage and smaller radii, and concussion grenades have high damage and large radii. All of them draw lots of attention and are difficult to use in most combat situations I run. The enemies are either too close or too far away. It actually hasn't even been intentional, so far.
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:03 pm Post subject:

crmcneill wrote:

A grenade that explodes and throws off pieces of jagged metal is little different than modern fragmentation grenades, but a grenade that explodes in a spherical energy discharge is not only more technologically advanced, it's more effective against characters wearing armor (referencing the ~1D difference between an armor's effectiveness against physical and energy attacks). Changing the name of a grenade = changing the technology = potentially changing the weapon's effectiveness in-universe.

I find I am agreeing with you on the grenade issue. So change it to a photon, proton, or laser grenade and make it an energy release in a sperical area. I envision a photon or proton grenade as a spherical energy blast while a laser grenade would be a bomb-pumped laser projection of a whole lot of narrow beam lasers that spray out in a spherical area. I like the idea that it is an energy rather than a physical weapon. Sounds more Star Warsy and is more effective against existing armor. Smile

Can probably use the existing stats for a proton or photon grenade with the simple change to energy effect.

Quote:

I thought it was something like that; I just wasn't feeling motivated enough to look up Grenade on Wikipedia.

Well the Grenadier unites from the 18th century and Napoleonic periods are kind of a give away for me. Wink

And I knew the Chinese had to be using gunpowder for something besides fireworks.

Fallon Kell
Commodore

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Location: Tacoma, WA

Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:09 pm Post subject:

Bren wrote:

...a laser grenade would be a bomb-pumped laser projection of a whole lot of narrow beam lasers that spray out in a spherical area.

BTW, this is what my "blast grenades" are, barring the fact that I make a distinction between blaster bolts and lasers. I reverse engineered the concept from stun grenades.
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Whill
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:23 pm Post subject:

Bren wrote:

I like the idea that it is an energy rather than a physical weapon. Sounds more Star Warsy.

I agree that it sounds more Star Warsy, but even Star Warsifying grenades in this way still won't help with my inadequacy to effectively manage game balance with respect to grenade usage...

But if this thread inspires any GM who likes using grenades in his game to make them more Star Warsy, then at least my concern of grenades not being Star Warsy enough has been addressed for someone else! crmcneill, I hope you you do make grenades into energy weapons.
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: The Grenade Thread

Whill wrote:

I agree that it sounds more Star Warsy, but even Star Warsifying grenades in this way still won't help with my inadequacy to effectively manage game balance with respect to grenade usage...

We didn't use grenades a lot. The only problems I remember encountering with them were the following:
(1) Stormtrooper armor provides +2D protection against physical damage, so stormies with 2D strength are typically only stunned by a point blank grenade hit. Superior stormies often get no effect from a point blank hit.
(2) Similarly high strength alien characters often fully soak a grenade hit. I recall a character I ran a few times who had 5D STR, if he used a FP he could totally shrug off multiple grenade hits. We actually joked about him running up to Imperials with a grenade in hand (though I never actually did that). Note this is really just another version of the blaster proof Wookiee problem.
(3) Missing the target and random locations.

Possible solutions:
(A) Use energy grenades. This more or less solves (1) since now the STR 2D stormtrooper has only a +1D for energy damage and should be wounded on average. Which seems a reasonable result for a grenade hit to a man in heavy armor.
(B) Treat any point blank or close range grenade hit as automatically stunning the target (or causing the target to lose an action as if wounded) due to shock, concussion, noise, glare, whiting out the MTAS visor, or whatever. This somewhat fixes both (1) and (2).
(C) Treat any point blank hit that a character is not trying to dodge as doing double damage. This improves both (1) and (2) and mostly counters the FP use by low-med high STR characters. There may still be a problem for characters with high STR using a FP, but at least they should be trying to dodge in case they get a bad roll.
(D) Treat wound damage more like 1E so any roll of damage that is >= 1/2 the soak roll does Stun damage. Like (B) but this somewhat fixes all damage vs high STR characters.
(E) Combine two or more rules. Personally I favor using (A), (C), and (D).
(F) Players and NPCs can somewhat solve (3) by not tossing grenades if their skill is below say 4D or so and/or count on having to spend a CP or two to ensure you hit the right target. Like all explosives, people that are unpracticed should probably find other toys to play with.
(G) As a GM, consider over ruling the random rule by just having a missed grenade throw detonate more or less safely between, beyond, or to the side of the intended target. After all, most of us don't cause a failed blaster shot to randomly hit someone other than the target. Save the random determination for a complication on the wild die along with a missed roll. Of course a complication on the wild die with a successful roll probably means the target has plenty of time to throw the grenade back. Twisted Evil

Personally, given real world military history of 1000 years of grenades in one form or another, I can't suspend my disbelief enougth to have a no grenades rule in Star Wars. The fact that we see the Gungans hurling energy balls that look like (though they don't quite act like) grenades just makes the suspension more difficult for me. I don't know that this is entirely a logical contradiction, since I am quite happy to more or less ignore chemical firearms in Star Wars while allowing troops, like those on Jabba's sail barge, that favor melee weapons over blasters (or firearms).

But I think for me space opera requires ray guns and often allows swords, but firearms just seem too hard sci fi to me. (Coincidentally one reason I never found Traveller as mythically inspiring for me as Star Wars.) But enough about me.

Thoughts?

Random Numbers
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:51 pm Post subject:

Bren wrote:

crmcneill wrote:

Can probably use the existing stats for a proton or photon grenade with the simple change to energy effect.

Quote:

I thought it was something like that; I just wasn't feeling motivated enough to look up Grenade on Wikipedia.

Well the Grenadier unites from the 18th century and Napoleonic periods are kind of a give away for me. Wink

And I knew the Chinese had to be using gunpowder for something besides fireworks.

I agree with both of you! The detonite should be the only old style explosive. And even so should be far more deadly than our world equivalent.
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garhkal
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Posted: Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:05 pm Post subject:

Bren wrote:

(2) Similarly high strength alien characters often fully soak a grenade hit. I recall a character I ran a few times who had 5D STR, if he used a FP he could totally shrug off multiple grenade hits. We actually joked about him running up to Imperials with a grenade in hand (though I never actually did that). Note this is really just another version of the blaster proof Wookiee problem.

There have been many threads about 'bullet/grenade proof wookies and the like. So that has been addressed..

Bren wrote:

(3) Missing the target and random locations.

Personally i think there needs to be the same for many other weapons.. such as any sort of thrown or bow like weapon.. miss, it scatters.

Bren wrote:

Possible solutions:
(A) Use energy grenades. This more or less solves (1) since now the STR 2D stormtrooper has only a +1D for energy damage and should be wounded on average. Which seems a reasonable result for a grenade hit to a man in heavy armor.

Hence my love for stun grenades!!!

Bren wrote:

(B) Treat any point blank or close range grenade hit as automatically stunning the target (or causing the target to lose an action as if wounded) due to shock, concussion, noise, glare, whiting out the MTAS visor, or whatever. This somewhat fixes both (1) and (2).

I like this... sort of Grenade X gives auto wound at bl zone Y..

Bren wrote:

(C) Treat any point blank hit that a character is not trying to dodge as doing double damage. This improves both (1) and (2) and mostly counters the FP use by low-med high STR characters. There may still be a problem for characters with high STR using a FP, but at least they should be trying to dodge in case they get a bad roll.

OR give them no soak!..

(D) Treat wound damage more like 1E so any roll of damage that is >= 1/2 the soak roll does Stun damage. Like (B) but this somewhat fixes all damage vs high STR characters.[/quote]

Alternately, have some grenades do both phys AND energy damage at the same D value.. so you have 2 chances to injure them..

Bren wrote:

(F) Players and NPCs can somewhat solve (3) by not tossing grenades if their skill is below say 4D or so and/or count on having to spend a CP or two to ensure you hit the right target. Like all explosives, people that are unpracticed should probably find other toys to play with.

The amt of times i have actually seen the 6d+ ones miss or flub more than the 4d and lower ones is laughable..

Bren wrote:

(G) As a GM, consider over ruling the random rule by just having a missed grenade throw detonate more or less safely between, beyond, or to the side of the intended target. After all, most of us don't cause a failed blaster shot to randomly hit someone other than the target. Save the random determination for a complication on the wild die along with a missed roll. Of course a complication on the wild die with a successful roll probably means the target has plenty of time to throw the grenade back. Twisted Evil

I think with all sorts of explosives there should be that miss factor, not just grenades. And unless it is timed or set to impact how would you get it to go off when you want it to?
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