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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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 Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:31 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | However, being a modern fan of the maps that bring in the logic of spatial relationships to make the galaxy seem more real and make more sense to me, I do see the need to update the game system with more information. |
Yes, I too like having a big map. What sort of updates do you see as desirable? |
We've talked about it a lot on other threads. A system where an astrogator has to not just decide a destination, but look at a map and decide a specific path to take (which routes and systems to go through), and difficulty being determined considering these details. The galaxy having so many systems and us not having the details for every area of the galaxy does make campaigns with PCs free-roaming around the galaxy completely at player discretion extremely complicated for a GM, so I don't run those kinds of games. But if a free-roaming campaign in a smaller but well-mapped out region, or a mission-type of campaign with likely destinations planned out by the GM in advance work fine with a greater level of detail. Even a galaxy spanning campaign with limits to certain regions that are mapped out might work. In the system we have now, without specific maps, the GM just wings it and comes up with a difficulty.
The basic 1E interpretaion of just travelling from one star system directly to any other star system works fine for space opera games in which the GM and players can suspend disbelief to that level and just don't feel they need a more complex system to tell their stories. It works as is for some.
| Bren wrote: | | The resource management aspect of having to preselect jumps also seems in conflict with (1) the more free ranging, open-ended, fast-paced style of space opera |
| Whill wrote: | | I do not see a conflict. The limited jumps are only with starfighters, which are primarily presented by the films as being for specific military/Jedi missions. |
| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Honestly, I suspect the purpose of the rule was to introduce a reason in RAW to prevent players from wanting to roam around the galaxy in starfighters! 8) |
Which, when you think about it, is an odd objective considering how often it happens in the movies. |
What movies are you talking about? There are no characters shown in the Star Wars films that randomly roam the galaxy in rebel starfighters without a purpose. I am hearing that happens in some RPG campaigns, but not the films. Rebel starfighters (the ones with the limited navicomputers or require the use of the limited astrodroids) do however go on missions with planned destinations and escape routes. Even the prequels starfighters (although never statted by WEG) are also not shown to just roam around. They are used on missions.
| Whill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | The resource management aspect of having to preselect jumps also seems in conflict with (1) and (2) with the lack of an available map or listing of all known routes to select possible routes from. |
Not at all. When the astrogation/hyperspace rules were created for this game, no such maps existed. |
| Bren wrote: | | My points are first that without a map actually selecting 10 routes for an astromech droid is either trivial or intensely problematic. Trivial since 10 destinations is about the number of planets listed in the original gazetter. Problematic in that there is no logical way for a player to intelligently choose additional or alternate routes without a map or listing. Thus in the past, we in our game have typbasically ignored selecting routes and just keep the notion of limited choices in the back of our minds. While that works, it is a bit unsatisfying. The second point is that we never see anyone in the films say something like "well I'd love to accompany you in my starfighter, but I don't have Coruscant/Tatooine/Dagobah programmed into my astromech unit/mini nav computer." So creating a resource management issue seems out of keeping with the films and a space opera tone. |
If you define "space opera tone" as it must include the ability to roam freely around the galaxy in rebel starfighters, then yes, the limited jumps seems out of keeping with that.
However, I suspect that I may have failed to make the rule clear. It was never the case that the pre-programmed jumps were locked in and unable to be changed. The limit is just the most you can have programmed at any one time. You can delete jumps and program new ones at any time.
"Well I'd love to accompany you in my starfighter, but I don't have the jump from here to Tatooine programmed into my astromech unit. Can I have a minute to link him up to your navicomputer and program that jump before you leave?" Problem solved.
Consider more common uses for Rebel starfighters based on design purpose. If the Rebel fighters jump from a Rebel base or ship for a mission, they have a specific destination to jump to and one or more possible escape routes planned. But when they get back to base, their limited navicomputers or astrodroids can be reprogrammed for a completely different set of jumps for the next mission. As a GM when I've ran Rebel campaigns where the PC operations are based out of a Rebel base, some NPC base navigator programmed the specific possible jumps needed for a mission for the PCs before they left (and I never even made the players roll the astrogration skill to jump to the mission destination in a Rebel starfighters). For the next mission to new systems, new jumps were programmed for the PCs that replaced the old programmed jumps.
The rule regarding limited jumps for hyperspace-capable starfighters is irrelavent to freighters which have full navicomputers. Flying a freighter seems much more condusive to free-roaming campaigns, and can still capture that classic space opera tone. But like I said, if you don't like the limitation, simply hand-wave it away.
| Bren wrote: | | Yet we see Luke using his starfighter to go to Dagobah, Bespin, and Tatooine and we see him in the Millenium Falcon going to Alderaan/Death Star 1 and Yavin. We see him in a shuttle going to Endor. So in the original films Luke uses his X-wing as often as he uses a larger vessel. That's the point of conflict. This use of X-wings is continued in the EU and echoed in the use of Jedi starfighters in the prequels. That't why I see some conflict. |
| Bren wrote: | | Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | I think Bren's right - there is definitely conflict. Just Luke's trip to Dagobah gives us HUGE conflicts, and not just for the limited-jump idea....Can someone explain it through a different scenario? |
To answer your question, like garhkal I presume Luke uses Instinctive Astrogation (the Sense based power) to "feel" his way to Dagobah using the Force. That's the scene that I always assumed inspired the creation of the power. |
Well done, Bren. You may not have realized it but you've resolved your own (and Mikael's) conflict based on the films. LUKE IS FORCE-SENSITIVE. When a Force-Sensitive uses the Force to divine a course through hyperspace, he is not using the navicomputer or a pre-programmed jump. That means that even if your X-Wing has no navicomputer and your astrodroid has a 10-jump memory, you don't have to use any of those programmed jumps if you instead use the Force. Luke didn't even necessarily need an R2 unit with him at all to plot a course through hyperspace with the Force. Sudden detour to Bespin? No problem.
In ANH, the Rebel starfighters do not travel through hyperspace. In TESB, Luke travels are explained by Instinctive Astrogation, while Wedge and the other non-Force-sensative Rebel pilots presumable go to the rendezvous with the Rebel fleet by the use of 10 or less jumps pre-programmed into their astrodroids back at the Hoth base before or during the battle. In RotJ, the Rebel starfighters make only 1 jump from Sullust to Endor (and as discussed earlier may have even had that 1 synchronized jump transmitted from the Falcon or Home One).
Now let's just assume for a moment that prequel hyperspace starfighters also have to deal with this limitation. In TPM, the droid fighters were launched from the control ships, and the Naboo fighters never jumped through hyperspace either. In AotC, the Incredible Cross-Section book indicates the Naboo fighters that escorted Senator Amidala's ship from Naboo to Coruscant are not hyperspace-capable. The Naboo fighters can actually plug into Amadala's ship which carries them through hyperspace, and then when they come out of lightspeed the fighters detach. Obi-Wan is Force-sensative. In RotS, Obi-Wan and Anakin are Force-sensative.
This rule regarding limited jumps for hyperspace-capable starfighters is not contradicted by the films in the slightest.
And for Force-senative PCs with an ability to divine paths through hyperspace, this rule in RAW may not hinder unexpected destination changes or even free-roaming around the galaxy in a starfighter.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | We've talked about it a lot on other threads. A system where an astrogator has to not just decide a destination, but look at a map and decide a specific path to take (which routes and systems to go through), and difficulty being determined considering these details. The galaxy having so many systems and us not having the details for every area of the galaxy does make campaigns with PCs free-roaming around the galaxy completely at player discretion extremely complicated for a GM, so I don't run those kinds of games. |
I do like to have the galaxy at my players' disposal, and leave them free to roam. That's one reason that I've been developing my nav computer... well, that and the coding challenge.
The challenge for the GM becomes anticipating where one's PCs will want to go, so one has to have those settings somewhat developed in one's brain. I do it by giving each character a list of planets with which they are familiar, with some descriptions. This is done after character generation, along with a list of people their characters are acquainted with. This puts them into the game much less tabula rasa.
| Whill wrote: | However, I suspect that I may have failed to make the rule clear. It was never the case that the pre-programmed jumps were locked in and unable to be changed. The limit is just the most you can have programmed at any one time. You can delete jumps and program new ones at any time.
"Well I'd love to accompany you in my starfighter, but I don't have the jump from here to Tatooine programmed into my astromech unit. Can I have a minute to link him up to your navicomputer and program that jump before you leave?" Problem solved. |
Okay, so the problem only arises when there is not a nav computer with which to calculate the route. I'm not sure that this is different from what Bren had in mind. Sure, it solves the problem of not being able to accompany a ship with a nav computer, but what about when the person with the starfighter is the one cruising around on her own?
| Whill wrote: | | Well done, Bren. You may not have realized it but you've resolved your own (and Mikael's) conflict based on the films. LUKE IS FORCE-SENSITIVE. When a Force-Sensitive uses the Force to divine a course through hyperspace, he is not using the navicomputer or a pre-programmed jump. That means that even if your X-Wing has no navicomputer and your astrodroid has a 10-jump memory, you don't have to use any of those programmed jumps if you instead use the Force. Luke didn't even necessarily need an R2 unit with him at all to plot a course through hyperspace with the Force. Sudden detour to Bespin? No problem. |
That is definitely the Occam's razor approach. 
I did not know about Instinctive Astrogation. But, cool! (I've found it on the D6Holocron.
But do you think we're supposed to believe that Luke is strong enough in the Force at that point in the story? I would imagine that a route from Hoth to Dagobah would be fairly difficult, given Dagobah's location. Do you figure Yoda was guiding him there? |
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | My points are first that without a map actually selecting 10 routes for an astromech droid is either trivial or intensely problematic. Trivial since 10 destinations is about the number of planets listed in the original gazetter. Problematic in that there is no logical way for a player to intelligently choose additional or alternate routes without a map or listing. Thus in the past, we in our game have typbasically ignored selecting routes and just keep the notion of limited choices in the back of our minds. While that works, it is a bit unsatisfying. The second point is that we never see anyone in the films say something like "well I'd love to accompany you in my starfighter, but I don't have Coruscant/Tatooine/Dagobah programmed into my astromech unit/mini nav computer." So creating a resource management issue seems out of keeping with the films and a space opera tone. |
If you define "space opera tone" as it must include the ability to roam freely around the galaxy in rebel starfighters, then yes, the limited jumps seems out of keeping with that. |
Yes that seems to be what we see in the films. Now perhaps all the Jedi have instinctive astrogation, but if so, we don't see a clear indication of that - no pausing to meditate before jumping, no "R2 I'll just keep it on manual for a while" comments like we hear from Luke on his trip to Dagobah. Dagobah is the exception really. It just seems like they can go where they want in their Jedi fighters or X-wings.
| Quote: | | However, I suspect that I may have failed to make the rule clear. It was never the case that the pre-programmed jumps were locked in and unable to be changed. |
No. That was clear. It's how we get around the limitation of the jumps. And while that allows fighters to go more places it doesn't address the question of what routes, aside from Base to planet X and Planet X back to Base should logically be selected for the other eight choices. Putting a limit implies an ability to select reasonable routes and the 1E rules didn't provide that. Hence my comment related to routes being either trivial or impossible to logically select. Even the new maps don't make it easy to decide what routes should be chosen. Now a map like what one sees in Traveller would allow sufficient information for choosing routes in a reasonable and logical manner, but jump route nexi are not the way hyperspace works in Star Wars. Creating a resource management problem - select no more than 10 preprogrammed routes - and then not providing information to solve the problem is a flaw in the rules that I am whining about (I mean pointing out).
| Quote: | | Well done, Bren. You may not have realized it but you've resolved your own (and Mikael's) conflict based on the films. LUKE IS FORCE-SENSITIVE. When |
Of course I realize Instinctive Astrogation can be used to counter one objection. But it is a power in the RAW. Sure Luke is Force Sensitive. The question is when does he know Instinctive Astrogation and when does he use it. And a related question is can the other ships in Rogue Squadron slave their vessels to Lukes so he can guide them all through hyperspace or can only his vessel go.
| Quote: | | In ANH, the Rebel starfighters do not travel through hyperspace. |
Which is why I didn't use it as an example.
| Quote: | | This rule regarding limited jumps for hyperspace-capable starfighters is not contradicted by the films in the slightest. |
If you assume all the Jedi know and are using Instinctive Astrogation when necessary.
| Quote: | | And for Force-senative PCs with an ability to divine paths through hyperspace, this rule in RAW may not hinder unexpected destination changes or even free-roaming around the galaxy in a starfighter. |
As long as all the pilots know Instinctive Astrogation or there is a way to slave the others' ships to the Jedi's vessel who does know IA, you are correct. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Honestly, I suspect the purpose of the rule was to introduce a reason in RAW to prevent players from wanting to roam around the galaxy in starfighters! 8) |
Which, when you think about it, is an odd objective considering how often it happens in the movies. |
What movies are you talking about? There are no characters shown in the Star Wars films that randomly roam the galaxy in rebel starfighters without a purpose. I am hearing that happens in some RPG campaigns, but not the films. Rebel starfighters (the ones with the limited navicomputers or require the use of the limited astrodroids) do however go on missions with planned destinations and escape routes. Even the prequels starfighters (although never statted by WEG) are also not shown to just roam around. They are used on missions. |
"Randomly" is a new condition my comment was not intended to meet.
Roaming purposefully is something that does happen in starfighters. Luke didn't roam randomly, but if you saw his path and didn't know the story you couldn't tell that just by looking. He went from Hoth to Dagobah to Bespin. I think that qualifies as "roaming". Yoda's house probably didn't have a nav computer in it, so under 1E rules a player following his path would need to have Bespin programmed in while still on Hoth.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:14 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As long as all the pilots know Instinctive Astrogation or there is a way to slave the others' ships to the Jedi's vessel who does know IA, you are correct. |
And even with IA, there are chances of messing up.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | | As long as all the pilots know Instinctive Astrogation or there is a way to slave the others' ships to the Jedi's vessel who does know IA, you are correct. |
And even with IA, there are chances of messing up. |
Not true, Padawan. A failed jump with IA is "the will of the Force". That's why those misjumps invariable lead into new adventures!  |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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True they can lead to some of the funnest adventures..
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Pel
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2011 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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And Otherspace! 8)
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | | As long as all the pilots know Instinctive Astrogation or there is a way to slave the others' ships to the Jedi's vessel who does know IA, you are correct. |
And even with IA, there are chances of messing up. |
Not true, Padawan. A failed jump with IA is "the will of the Force". That's why those misjumps invariable lead into new adventures! |
I don't know much about the mechanics of IA off the top of my head, but can't you just blow up with a failed hyperjump roll? (GM:"The will of the force is... You explode and die.")
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | I don't know much about the mechanics of IA off the top of my head, but can't you just blow up with a failed hyperjump roll? (GM:"The will of the force is... You explode and die.") |
| Instinctive Astrogation wrote: | | If the Jedi succeeds at charting the course, she needs only generate an Easy astrogation total to plot a safe path. If the Jedi fails the roll, the astrogation difficulty is automatically Very Difficult; if the roll is missed by more than five points, increase the difficulty to Heroic. |
So whether the Jedi succeeds or fails at Instinctive Astrogation she still needs to make an Astrogation roll. If that roll fails then either you can't jump at all or you go to the Astrogation Mishap Table. Looking at the Astrogation Mishap Table on page 119 I don't see any "you explode and die" resuts. However there is a heavy damage result that could cause loss of atmosphere, which could be fatal if you can't reach a vac suit, escape pod, or other source of life support before your stamina rolls fail.  |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:58 am Post subject: |
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That's right. I was thinking it was Severly damaged, though, and you might have a reactor overload or a hull disintegration or something. I s'pose I should know by now not to go by my memory of how things went 10 years ago...
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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I always thought there was also a poss of going into hyperspace with a bad vector if you missed with a roll of 1-5 on the die, and missed the diff by 14 or more..
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Best yet: GM:"The will of the force is... You explode and die." 
Cracked me up!
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | Best yet: GM:"The will of the force is... You explode and die."
Cracked me up! |
Thank you, ZzaphodD. I do my best.
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | Best yet: GM:"The will of the force is... You explode and die."
Cracked me up! |
Thank you, ZzaphodD. I do my best. |
Is that the extreme of GM railroading...
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