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Naaman
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 Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: |
absolutist doctrines never react well when applied to reality. |
NEVER??? |
I thoroughly subscribe to the idea that absolutes are alive and well and are especially applicable to a setting like Star Wars which is drenched with the classic light vs. dark dichotomy.
I personally feel that Obi-Wan's line "only the sith..." was not only contradictory, but more of an attempt at a political statement than actual dialog for the movie. As to it's validity as canon, well, there's no argument there. But, personally, I reject it on the basis that it felt like a contrived way to insert political commentary into a movie that is otherwise so vastly removed from the reality that we live in.
Once a Jedi starts playing around in the gray area, the whole saga goes right out the window, so I just operate as though that line was not in the movie. |
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vanir
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| Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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Well you're right, absolutism is a political term, traditionally related to classical monarchies. An absolutist monarchy was one in which the ruler used sweeping fundamentalism as a means of legislation, which in turn is interpreted variously by subordinates to create fiefdoms and diktat.
Germany's Kaiser and the Imperial Russian Czar were absolutist monarchies for example, which amounted to the German Imperial High Command running Germany, and everyone who wasn't a Romanov in the Russian Empire having the lawful rights of a serf.
As Anakin was incapable of realising this was precisely the kind of philosophy he was asserting even if he managed to destroy Palpatine and make the galaxy "my new Empire" it was indeed a rational statement by Obi Wan, pointedly remarking this to be the general failing of the Sith. He was telling Anakin that he was just going to be another Palpatine, or something more ignorant but just as dark and possibly worse.
Thing to keep in mind here is political science, like sociology and psychology, are not separable from humanity (ie. sentient beings within the setting), they are generated as inherent mechanics of the way in which sentients function.
So making political statements is only irrelevant if you are ignorant to political affairs. It's like bringing up math and chemistry when you ask how a combustion engine works, that is how a combustion engine works. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | He discussed back in the 80s that during filming of Empire Strikes Back, which despite popular opinion was never originally planned, Star Wars was filmed as "trilogy-like in the scifi/fantasy genre" but was intended to be a standalone film, no sequels or prequels were originally planned. Or more to the point Lucas had toyed with the idea in preproduction of making the Star Wars screenplay span two or three movies but cut it back to one. The popularity/success of that movie at the box office and afterwards drove its sequels.
Lucas said when he worked in production for ESB he decided at that point to turn the continuing saga over to fans for how it would evolve. Fans wanted to see more of Han Solo and the Millenium Falcon so a good portion of the movie catered to it. The saga of the Jedi-apprentice Luke Skywalker continued as the main plot device but Lucas used a simple soap opera device for the climactic scene with Darth Vader, who at this stage was still a seperate character from Anakin Skywalker (who was just an abstract character in the backstory of Obi Wan and Luke and tied those two together). Lucas said even when the film was aired he hadn't decided yet if Vader's claim to being Luke's father was a falsehood by a darksider attempting to manipulate an impressionable youth, who is prone to simply psychology experienced warriors use in battle to gain the upper hand and deal a killing blow. Had Luke accepted Vader's hand at Bespin for example, Lucas may have had the dark lord simply cut him down and call him a gullible fool. He hadn't decided how it would play out in Return of the Jedi (which was planned during filming of ESB, but was called Revenge of the Jedi at that stage as Vader wasn't Anakin and had indeed murdered Anakin, Luke's father). Then when it came time to begin RotJ production fans had taken to the claim of Vader and Anakin being one and the same person, so it was then that Lucas finally decided to take that path with the screenplay for RotJ, which was renamed Return of the Jedi (the prequel film Revenge of the Sith was an homage to this renaming of the OT final film).
So even midway through what became the OT, Lucas changed canon as he went along, with it the entire backstory that any EU happened to be using. |
Hello vanir. This is largely inaccurate. Please see this thread where this came up last year: http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3535
Thanks.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | Well you're right, absolutism is a political term, traditionally related to classical monarchies. An absolutist monarchy was one in which the ruler used sweeping fundamentalism as a means of legislation, which in turn is interpreted variously by subordinates to create fiefdoms and diktat.
Germany's Kaiser and the Imperial Russian Czar were absolutist monarchies for example, which amounted to the German Imperial High Command running Germany, and everyone who wasn't a Romanov in the Russian Empire having the lawful rights of a serf.
As Anakin was incapable of realising this was precisely the kind of philosophy he was asserting even if he managed to destroy Palpatine and make the galaxy "my new Empire" it was indeed a rational statement by Obi Wan, pointedly remarking this to be the general failing of the Sith. He was telling Anakin that he was just going to be another Palpatine, or something more ignorant but just as dark and possibly worse.
Thing to keep in mind here is political science, like sociology and psychology, are not separable from humanity (ie. sentient beings within the setting), they are generated as inherent mechanics of the way in which sentients function.
So making political statements is only irrelevant if you are ignorant to political affairs. It's like bringing up math and chemistry when you ask how a combustion engine works, that is how a combustion engine works. |
Maybe so, but the movie makes no attempt to develop such subtleties (or, if it does, it fails miserably). I'll have to re-watch the commentaries to see if any remark whatsoever is made that suggests the comment was actually intended to remark on political nuance within the SWU. As of right now, the suggestion that the dialog was actually meant to be anywhere near as deep-rooted and well thought out as you propose seems at best dubious. But I guess it's possible. |
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vanir
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| Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | vanir wrote: | He discussed back in the 80s that during filming of Empire Strikes Back, which despite popular opinion was never originally planned, Star Wars was filmed as "trilogy-like in the scifi/fantasy genre" but was intended to be a standalone film, no sequels or prequels were originally planned. Or more to the point Lucas had toyed with the idea in preproduction of making the Star Wars screenplay span two or three movies but cut it back to one. The popularity/success of that movie at the box office and afterwards drove its sequels.
Lucas said when he worked in production for ESB he decided at that point to turn the continuing saga over to fans for how it would evolve. Fans wanted to see more of Han Solo and the Millenium Falcon so a good portion of the movie catered to it. The saga of the Jedi-apprentice Luke Skywalker continued as the main plot device but Lucas used a simple soap opera device for the climactic scene with Darth Vader, who at this stage was still a seperate character from Anakin Skywalker (who was just an abstract character in the backstory of Obi Wan and Luke and tied those two together). Lucas said even when the film was aired he hadn't decided yet if Vader's claim to being Luke's father was a falsehood by a darksider attempting to manipulate an impressionable youth, who is prone to simply psychology experienced warriors use in battle to gain the upper hand and deal a killing blow. Had Luke accepted Vader's hand at Bespin for example, Lucas may have had the dark lord simply cut him down and call him a gullible fool. He hadn't decided how it would play out in Return of the Jedi (which was planned during filming of ESB, but was called Revenge of the Jedi at that stage as Vader wasn't Anakin and had indeed murdered Anakin, Luke's father). Then when it came time to begin RotJ production fans had taken to the claim of Vader and Anakin being one and the same person, so it was then that Lucas finally decided to take that path with the screenplay for RotJ, which was renamed Return of the Jedi (the prequel film Revenge of the Sith was an homage to this renaming of the OT final film).
So even midway through what became the OT, Lucas changed canon as he went along, with it the entire backstory that any EU happened to be using. |
Hello vanir. This is largely inaccurate. Please see this thread where this came up last year: http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3535
Thanks. |
My comment regarding how Lucas arrived at Darth becoming Luke's father is directly from Lucas back in the 80s, I remember it vividly. It happened, Lucas said what I said. There is no possible way to convince me that something which happened didn't happen.
You'll have to excuse me if I seem defensive I'm not, simply adamant that I am not misremembering. Lucas told about how he hadn't decided whether to take the track of Vader being Anakin even when preproduction of RotJ began, and that he was ambiguous about whether Vader was telling the truth when he inserted it into ESB. This was right around RotJ release when they were doing television spots and promos, I remember where I was at the time, I was quite a fan so was glued to every promo. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | | My comment regarding how Lucas arrived at Darth becoming Luke's father is directly from Lucas back in the 80s, I remember it vividly. |
C'mon, is it so hard to believe Lucas hasn't started taking his retcons into the real world? 
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | I think we are a minority on this board, but overall I'm with you in that respect. Since my personal chosen canon includes all the films but only some EU, I also feel the RPG Force system needs updated to account for the prequels, as opposed to the prequel films being declared non-canon simply because they contradict WEG. But to each his own - Many WEG Star Wars GMs will more readily ignore aspects of the prequels because it suites their own view of the Star Wars universe. However I don't really feel WEG's interpretation is especially flawed. Based on the incomplete film saga at the time of WEG published their rules, the interpretation doesn't contradict too much. |
There is something to be said for that. I meant flawed in the sense that anything that is not an exact, perfect copy of the original is inherently flawed, regardless of degree. WEG D6 is a very good copy of Star Wars, but there are some notable failings (length of the Super Star Destroyer, proton torpedoes being straight-line weapons when they are shown to make very tight turns in the films, etc). It's not that I think they were deliberately trying to change things to make the SWU different from the films; I think they were working under a deadline, and they did the best they could with what they had, but they didn't get everything right. Therefore, while the majority of the work is quite good, there are some issues that need to be corrected. And thus was born the House Rules section of the Rancor Pit.
| Quote: | | Regarding Luke and the Gamorrenans, I think it is first worth mentioning the out-of-universe reason for the scene. Luke seeming to use Vader's trademark Force choke was meant to create a sense of doubt of Luke's morality for the audience, the same thing his black outfit does, riffing off Luke's vision in the Dagobah cave where he saw himself in Vader's helmet. Will Luke turn to evil as his father had? Luke seems to be treading down a dark path. Early on, it builds drama towards the character's personal climax at the end of the film, where he almost turns to the Dark Side but doesn't. |
My point of view has always been based on my state of mind when I saw ROTJ. I was a young, naive kid who believed in a black and white Star Wars universe. There was never any doubt in my mind that Luke was the good guy, and although he might be tempted by the Dark Side, he would never really fall. As such, I have never felt the need to look beyond the simple concept of "if Luke was allowed to do it, then it should be alright."
| Quote: | | As far as the game interpretation of that event, sure, Luke could be using Affect Mind and just making them think they were choking. Or maybe Luke got a couple Dark Side points. |
The problem here that I keep coming back to is, where is the motivation to turn to the Dark Side? If you look at the end of the film, when he attacks Vader for threatening Leia, that is perfectly understandable, because Luke is being driven by strong negative emotions. In the scene with the Gammoreans, however, there is no emotional impetus. Luke had voluntarily given up his lightsaber and walked into Jabba's palace unarmed, there was a plan in place to get all of his friends out, and everything was going smoothly. There might've been some tension, but nothing an almost-Jedi wouldn't have been able to handle. Certainly not enough to make him commit two DSP-earning acts in sequence just to impress the doorman.
Bottom line, I have heard all of the arguments in favor of Luke earning DSPs for using Force Choke in this situation, and none of them have added up to me.
| Quote: | I think it also brings to consideration the rules for learning powers, and other stories not told.
Where did Luke learn that power? Is it instinctive, or was their more training after Yoda? We know that Obi-Wan's spirit would not have taught that to Luke (or communicated much of anything between sequels due to Obi-Wan not responding to Luke's question, "Why didn't you tell me?" until RotJ). And Luke is suddenly a bad-@$$ in RotJ and needs no more training from Yoda, so I imagine Luke got more training along the way, but from who? |
Excellent points, and not something easily addressed by the RAW. IMO, there should be something to represent spontaneous inspiration in skill development. There should also be some aspect of allowing characters to learn and/or develop Force powers without a teacher (as the Force powers had to come from somewhere. To paraphrase, which came first: the student or the teacher?)
My take on it is relatively simple: I've changed up TK Kill to allow the Jedi to use it in Stun mode, but only if he succeeds in a Willpower roll (with difficulty equal to his Control roll to bring up TK Kill). Playing that route ties into Yoda's discussion with Luke on Dagobah; the Dark Side is not stronger (as the Jedi is allowed to use many of the same techniques in non-lethal fashion), but it is quicker, easier and more seductive (as a Dark Side adept is not required to make the Willpower roll to keep from getting a DSP). Based on that, Yoda could easily have taught Luke this technique, but placed a great deal of emphasis on the Willpower training required to use it safely.
| Quote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | I just don't think that that should translate into an assumption of infallibility on their part. As great as the game is, they made mistakes, and as such, WEG's material should be viewed with no less of a critical eye than any other EU source, especially when there is a potential contradiction with the films themselves. |
Well said. |
Thanks.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting interpretation on Luke being the example. I use the same philosopy with a sort of heirarchy of stsndards. Luke, however, does not fit into that totem pole (he is my second least favorite character right behind Jar-Jar). For me, it goes like this:
Yoda - anything he does is automatically assumed to be "allowed".
Qui-Gon Jinn - he represent's the mastery of the "gray area." Pushing farther than he did will almost certainly result in a darkside point. In effect, Qui-Gon seemed to have a unique understanding of the nature of the Force - bigger than the traditional Jedi view - which allowed him to operate more according to "the big picture" than just any typical Jedi.
Obi-Wan Kenobi - If I can't find a reference in either Yoda's or Qui-Gon's deeds, I consider Obi-Wan. My biggest problem with Obi_Wan is that they almost turned him int another Luke Skywalker... But they just barely didn't. |
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cheshire
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: |
You'll have to excuse me if I seem defensive I'm not, simply adamant that I am not misremembering. Lucas told about how he hadn't decided whether to take the track of Vader being Anakin even when preproduction of RotJ began, and that he was ambiguous about whether Vader was telling the truth when he inserted it into ESB. This was right around RotJ release when they were doing television spots and promos, I remember where I was at the time, I was quite a fan so was glued to every promo. |
I'm having a hard time of seeing both of your memories as being mutually exclusive. It may simply be that Lucas himself said two different things that are mutually exclusive. I sincerely doubt that he really remembers what he was thinking at the time, and I don't doubt that his mind changed with ever subsequent draft of a script.
We're also talking about someone who, by his own admission, doesn't really remember the movies particularly well. He's said that he makes the movies, and once he's done with his work, he doesn't really re-watch them very often at all. When given a Star Wars quiz he had even failed on things that fans would consider pretty basic knowledge (such as what those creatures were called that Han and Luke were riding around on in ESB).
That's probably why we have a guy who originally set out to make a single movie... er... I mean three. No, really I'm making nine. I mean six. I always saw it as six.
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | That's probably why we have a guy who originally set out to make a single movie... er... I mean three. No, really I'm making nine. I mean six. I always saw it as six. |
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | C'mon, is it so hard to believe Lucas hasn't started taking his retcons into the real world? |
| cheshire wrote: | | That's probably why we have a guy who originally set out to make a single movie... er... I mean three. No, really I'm making nine. I mean six. I always saw it as six. |
Holy Cow! You mean I'm right!?!
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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As much as I appreciate His Exalted Flannelness for giving us Star Wars, regrettably, I usually don't listen to his musings on what he meant for the Star Wars universe to be, if those musings contradict what is in the films (or even some of the more established EU). He may have created it, but his creation really has grown beyond the control of any one person, especially not someone whose vision is as transient as George's often seems to be. Indeed, a great deal of the schizophrenia that is found in the EU can be laid at George's feet; even if he didn't actually cause the confusion, he most certainly led by example.
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Whill
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: |
My comment regarding how Lucas arrived at Darth becoming Luke's father is directly from Lucas back in the 80s, I remember it vividly. It happened, Lucas said what I said. There is no possible way to convince me that something which happened didn't happen.
You'll have to excuse me if I seem defensive I'm not, simply adamant that I am not misremembering. |
| vanir wrote: | | I'm functioning on what is most likely a highly romanticised childhood memory, not only am I talk about over thirty years ago, but also primary school ages or the memory of those from middle age. It is firstly fallible and secondly romanticism. |
And people accuse Lucas of contradicting himself!  I do not present fallible, romantic childhood memories as facts, and I did not even know almost all of these behind-the-scenes development details in my childhood.
SW Saga's # of episodes - Lucas' vision has fluctuated wildly. It went from 1 to 3 to 4 or 6 to 9 or 12 to 6.
Star Wars started as one 3-act film that consisted of a story similar to ANH minus the final Death Star battle + TESB's Jedi training montage and Luke's first personal confrontation with Vader in which he learns Vader is his father + a final Death Star battle with Wookiees flying ships and Luke battling Vader inside the Death Star, eventually lobbing an explosive down a shaft that leads to the reactor core and escaping as the battle station is destroyed, defeating the Empire and restoring freedom to the galaxy.
Then Lucas thought that his single movie could be expanded into a trilogy, and he decided to base the first episode on the first act but felt strongly that the first movie (and possibly only one that ever gets made) should still have a final Death Star battle, so he tacked one onto the end of the first act.
Lucas also thought that his backstory notes could possibly be developed into 1 then 3 prequel films, but Fox nixed the first film being numerated as "Episode IV". Thus with the release of the first film, Lucas had the bulk of the basic story for the eventual 6 film saga.
After the huge success of the first SW film, Lucas was free to add "Episode IV" to the theatrical re-release of SW, thus implying the possibility of 3 prequel films.
Until after TESB, Lucas had temporarily considered the Empire not being destroyed in the third film to allow for the additional possiblity of 1 or 2 sequel trilogies (thus 9 or 12 films total). He gave some general statements about basic ideas, themes and characters to explore in these final 3 to 6 episodes, but Lucas never had any concrete story ideas. These were likely just fueled by dreams of avarice. For episodes beyond 6 to exist, Lucas would have had to intentionally delay some of the events of the third film to stretch them out to a new final episode and come up with a whole lot of plot to fill in the blank.
When it came down to it in pre-production of RotJ, Lucas realized that going beyond his previously planned destruction of the Empire in Episode VI would be going beyond his 1977 vision and officially gave up on the pipe dream of 1 or 2 sequel trilogies. He then designed RotJ to end the saga. Lucas wasn't revising history when he said that he never really had any story developed for sequel trilogies. He didn't.
Darth Vader - Although he didn't always have this name, this character was always intended to be a pathetic victim and Luke's dark father. When the single movie got explanded into a trilogy and the first film was based mainly on the first act, Lucas felt there wasn't enough room in the first film's story to fully develop Vader, so the portrayal of Vader as a pathetic victim and Luke's father were removed from that film. So Lucas' "retcon" from his original vision was to make Vader NOT be Luke's father, not the other way around. But you'll notice in the produced version of the film that Vader gets away at the end, and Obi-Wan had spoken to Luke as if he may have possiblity been lying about Vader and his father, so that left things open for Lucas to re-introduce his original concept for Vader in the sequels.
And at a sci-fi convention after the release of the first film, Lucas was asked who is behind the mask of Darth Vader, and he answered, "Vader is Luke's father" to a room full of people. Perhaps it was his intention, but that may have stunned the crowd into not asking any follow-up questions or was just so unbelievable that they might have thought he was flat-out lying. At that point, Lucas admits that he hadn't for sure decided if he was going to go that route or not in the sequel, so if he didn't then his convention revelation would retroactively be viewed as a red hearing. So when he later decided to stay true to his original concept, he was very happy that early public revelation wasn't picked up by the media to protect the dramatic value of Vader's revelation to Luke and the audience in TESB. And ironically, the seeming ambiguity of the Lucas' convention revelation would be echoed by the actual next film's revelation because many thought Vader may have been lying, including even James Earl Jones.
So Lucas' self-retcon to make Vader be a pathetic victim and Luke's father was a retcon back to the original concept (a retcon to a retcon). They just had to come up with a couple BS lines from Yoda and Obi-Wan in the final film about protecting Luke from the burden of the truth and subjectivity to explain Obi-Wan's misdirection in the first film, and move on with the story.
"There is another." - Lucas had some ideas but no conrete plan on who this "other" was actually supposed to have been when he wrote TESB. Lucas admits this line was a simple plot device to highten the drama by suggesting that Luke was did not have script immunity and thus could die. It's a cheap trick, but it worked.
One idea at that point was for Luke to have a long-lost sister that he would encounter and train in a sequel trilogy. When pre-production began on RotJ and Lucas decided for certain to go back to the six-film saga plan, he thought that there wasn't dramatic room to introduce another important character and didn't have any important role for Leia in the film, so Lucas killed a couple mynocks with one blaster bolt and made Leia the long-lost sister. This also neatly resolved the "love triangle" story arc. Lucas still admits Luke and Leia being siblings was not always planned.
Further, it also even served to provide a spark for the final duel where Luke defeats Vader nearly crosses over to the Dark Side. The shooting script only had something like, Vader says something that enrages Luke. Lucas thought the actual lines, "So you have a twin sister... If you will not turn to the Dark Side, then perhaps she will." and "Never!" were created by the director. The director died so Lucas could have easily gotten away with "revisionist history" if he had really wanted to. Lucas admits it wasn't planned ahead and doesn't even take credit for it.
In light of all these facts, why is it so hard for some to believe that Vader was originally Luke's father? Not always Leia's father, but Luke's father, yes. It was taken out of the first film, and reinserted into the sequels. Sorry if I sound defensive, but I am. I don't care what any fan's opinions on Star Wars are, but facts are facts. Ironically, it is some fans that have their own revisionist history of Star Wars much more than Lucas.
| Whill wrote: | I got all of my information above from the following sources I own:
The Making of Star Wars: The Definitive Story Behind the Original Film
Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays
Star Wars interviews in various issues of Starlog magazine going back to the 80s
The Star Wars Adventure Journal
The Star Wars film DVD commentaries (I highly recommend listening to these because if you already own the movies. |
I also have a originally Star Wars product dated 1980 that states all stromtroopers are clones. (And it even says these clones are allowed to have all the women and alcohol they want when off-duty). No one online believes me!
In 2002, Lucas repeated the statement that stormtroopers are clones. When asked why they are of different heights in the classic trilogy, he said because they are not all clones of the same man. When asked why the classic trilogy stormtroopers seem to be of poorer quality than in the Clone Wars, Lucas stated that after the death of Jango Fett, the new clones began to be based on multiple men that were not always of quality caliber. The reason for that is the honor of being a clone host began to be a political postion. Lucas did not revise history by saying all stormtroopers are clones - he never said they weren't. He just added more details that he hadn't previously gone into without contradicting what he had already stated long ago.
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vanir
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And people accuse Lucas of contradicting himself! I do not present fallible, romantic childhood memories as facts |
Whill considering you cherry picked another quote out of context to be dismissive don't you think it walks a little closely to ad hominem as a softening blow for indeed a knowledgeable follow up? I don't mind, go right ahead.
As you would no doubt be aware, one particular day the degree of detail or how vivid you recall a passing event decades in the past may vary, you may recall fewer details one particular day, and yet more detail or a more vivid image recall another particular day, perhaps you're less distracted or stressed that day, or your mood is different, or you've been eating better lately, as biological organism it just goes with the territory. But that doesn't make it any less accurate. We're not politicians working with salesmanship here. Have you never said, oh it went like this...no wait, hang on a minute now I remember, it went like that. Is if even as you recall events, jogging your memory you may piece together more detail. It's why police give witnesses their card and tell them, if you recall any more details about the crime, you can reach me at this number. In a court you can even recant legally without perjory because people are universally fallable. In war research, personal accounts have less celebration than military records for the same reason, Willy Reschke couldn't even remember if the Ta-152 he picked up from Rechlin had a high revving jumo engine and long wingspan, or low rumbling daimler and short wingspan with twice as many guns, he said it was one in his books and memoirs for decades but later research showed his flight log said it was the other, and in a supplementary interview he corrected himself.
So even backing your descredit of my memory, that still doesn't make what you quoted amount to a self contradiction. Willy Reschke didn't just imagine his recollection of the Ta-152 that he picked up from Rechlin that day, but even before a detail was falsified he would say that he is both adamant and yet fallable in the memory.
As you said yourself, Lucas at the point where he told the sci-fi convention that Vader was Luke's father that he hadn't committed to this path yet.
With that in mind you see I have at least three contexts to place what I might say next. I can argue my recollection, weeding it down to the barest details which are vivid and trimming the fat of any additional sources that may have mixed in over the years, however assured that at least some elements at the very root of my perceptions here aren't likely to have been planted by men in black while I was sleeping and aren't just made up.
Or, I can doubt myself. Hey we all do that especially with old memories if others around us, especially who's opinions we would value are totally certain we are misremembering. Back in the fifties cheating husbands used to convince their wives they're just being neurotic all the time. It's the awareness of fallability we all have. But it's a pretty sickly feeling.
Or, the context the trailing quote you used to "contradict" the former, I may simply be in the mood today not to want to argue with respected or long time members of a board I'd like to continue participating in, it's fairly unique and I really love the d6 WEG RPG, am active with it, and this is the best place on the web I know of for that interest. I've picked up some great stuff here.
And I'd like to feel good not feel sickly when coming here, or shamed, or anything like that.
At the very least, I believe what I say. That's enough. I know that I'm fallable too. I'm good with that. I might remember something one day, SWU has been around in our lives for so long, it started in 78 for some, I might remember something one day but realise the next I've thrown in a bunch of extra details tagged to that memory that I think better of and realise are misplaced, from another source etc.
It happens. We're just human.
Mostly, I'm not being a wackjob, I do believe what I'm saying at the time, and I don't want to feel badly coming here. Sometimes I'm stubborn despite a correction, that's just human too. Friends? |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10530
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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