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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: |
It's like comparing an F-15 to a MiG-21. You just wouldn't in any capacity other than simple dog fighting. Anything to do with battlefield communications, support and control functions, the F-15 is doing by the milisecond with datalinks while the MiG pilot is talking it out with his superiors and waiting for a response.
Until the F-15 pilot feels like jamming him. |
I will give you things like that for fighters but not freighters.
| vanir wrote: |
Of course what we like to do as Players is get a basic tramp freighter and install ECM from the equipment guide, fully kit it out as an electronic warfare ship, then soup it up to uber-starfighterscreening stats. |
And imp inspectors have never hit them??
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vanir
Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:31 am Post subject: |
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confused me there twice garhkal.
light stock freighters are a civilian ship class, they're not fitted with any military equipment, even their weaponry/shields package is arguably defensive, for fringe space not for warring with authorities.
Given that, a freight operator is only going to be licensed for a basic lascannon and low power shields.
So modified tramp freighters that smugglers, pirates and Alliance forces use are already pretty damn illegal unless their mods are at a minimum and don't show.
But there is no doubt at all that those tramp freighter captains that have military grade mods, normally running as pirates and smugglers in fringe territories, if they've thrown in with the Rebellion chances are they're on the run to begin with.
And you wouldn't go putting illegal mods on one otherwise, obviously, but my point is any that are running with the Rebel Fleet are pretty likely to be wanted already. And tramp freighters are great to mod because you can just fill up the cargo space with military grade avionics, power relays and engines. Our best light gunships and assault shuttles were always heavily modded tramp freighters.
How many wouldn't think the Millennium Falcon could go through an entire starfighter wing single handedly with a good, fully stocked crew? |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | So, as a rampant ignoramus who has never so much as laid eyes on a 1E rulebook, may I ask what exactly the salient differences are? |
That is far too harsh a term to apply to ignorance - why in in the Western philisophical tradition it is a laudable starting point and in fact, for Socrates, the beginning of wisdom.
And also being ignorant of 1E rules, an outline of the salient differences would be much appreciated. |
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | So, as a rampant ignoramus who has never so much as laid eyes on a 1E rulebook, may I ask what exactly the salient differences are? |
That is far too harsh a term to apply to ignorance - why in in the Western philisophical tradition it is a laudable starting point and in fact, for Socrates, the beginning of wisdom.
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I tend towards self-deprecating humor. I didn't mean to extend implications to everyone who's never read the 1E rules or even to seriously suggest I was as stupid as I was calling myself. It's a crack-brained reactionary thing... 
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vanir
Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:22 am Post subject: |
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Actually there's a massive difference to 1e but mostly if you started SWRPG when that was the current system.
Because it was intentionally laid out, and expressly stipulated that the entire gaming system was structured around a skeletal set of guidelines and GM case ruling for all mundane RP.
It was very elaborate about this, going into detail of scene construction and writers guidelines for GMs to build adventures with, which is carried to some extent over to 2e but it crossed the border into a gaming system further, where 1e clearly began as an ad hoc real old school RPG which has 1 core rulebook, a couple of supplements and a lot of house rules.
It was built on that.
2e changed emphasis. WotC completely changed the whole gaming system. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | So, as a rampant ignoramus who has never so much as laid eyes on a 1E rulebook, may I ask what exactly the salient differences are? |
And also being ignorant of 1E rules, an outline of the salient differences would be much appreciated. |
I'm not saying that there are any differences for this rule. It was stated that it wasn't very clear in RAW (which is by default 2E). I merely attempted to agree with and expand upon that by stating that it might have been better expained in 1E, where the rule was first appeared. Then I explained the RAW rule from my knowledge of the 1E explanation. Then I added a further commentary about how in my game 1 pre-programmed jump in a limited navicomputer or astrodroid gives you that jump in both directions.
I see nothing to indicate that the 2E RAW rules for limited jumps are any different than in 1E. Just less clear. I'm sorry if my previous wording seemed to overcomplicate a very simple and basic rule discussion.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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No problem Whill. I think we were just hoping that 1E provided a better or more detailed explanation. What you outlined in your original post is what I recall from 2E. I've just never been satisfied with the 2E explanation.
The resource management aspect of having to preselect jumps also seems in conflict with (1) the more free ranging, open-ended, fast-paced style of space opera and (2) with the lack of an available map or listing of all known routes to select possible routes from. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | The resource management aspect of having to preselect jumps also seems in conflict with (1) the more free ranging, open-ended, fast-paced style of space opera |
I do not see a conflict. The limited jumps are only with starfighters, which are primarily presented by the films as being for specific military/Jedi missions.
To honor the rule in RAW, you simply don't fly a starfighter for free-ranging, open-ended campaigns. Starfighters would naturally raise eyebrows on even the most unlawful worlds, and would realistically be downright illegal to just fly around the civillized galaxy willy-nilly in. So you open-ended free-range around a freighter. You modify it if you want some starfighter-type firepower or other capabilities, and then hide the modifications if you want to not have to explain them, register them, or risk getting your ship stolen or impounded with them. No PC starfighters were ever needed for my open-ended, free-ranging campaigns.
But if open-endedly flying around the galaxy free-range in starfighter doesn't seem silly to a GM, then a simple dose of "handwavism" does the trick to increase the jump number or eliminate the limitation altogether. "THIS A-Wing has a full navicomputer." Viola! Changing this rule won't break the game, mechanically. Honestly, I suspect the purpose of the rule was to introduce a reason in RAW to prevent players from wanting to roam around the galaxy in starfighters! 8)
I have had some bounty hunter NPCs and such that owned their own starfighters, and they were simply modified to have full navicomputers. Hand waived, limitation eliminated for NPC-owed ships, when appropriate. But even my Rebel PCs that flew starfighters did so on assigned missions so there was no opportunities to simple roam the galaxy in starfiighters in my game. Among the literally dozens of players I've ran in this game since 1988, only one player has ever asked for an ongoing campaign free-ranging in a starfighter. And he was 14, so he got over it quick after all the fun he had.
| Bren wrote: | | The resource management aspect of having to preselect jumps also seems in conflict with (1) and (2) with the lack of an available map or listing of all known routes to select possible routes from. |
Not at all. When the astrogation/hyperspace rules were created for this game, no such maps existed. The rules were simply made to allow you to travel directly from one system to another system anywhere else in the galaxy. You don't need a map for that. You only need to know starting point systems and destinations, and the GM decided how well-known the route was the difficulty for each jump. The Star Wars universe wasn't very "expanded" back then (nor realistic in that respect).
I think by any Star Wars gamer expecting a better explanation or being disappointed by a lack of one is trying to understand the game out of a modern EU perspective, and the game makes more sense as is if you can remove those filters and take yourself back to the 80s and 90s (It's easy for me since I was there the first time around). The game's astrogation rules are incredibly simple if you don't need to know where systems are in relation to each other. The GM only needed to decide how well-known that direct route is, and then you have your difficulty. If you add stop-overs to follow better known routes (meaning routes with lower difficulties), than you are adding more individual jumps to your journey, which is relative to how many rolls you have to make and the total humber of jumps in relation to a limited navicomputer if you had one.
However, being a modern fan of the maps that bring in the logic of spatial relationships to make the galaxy seem more real and make more sense to me, I do see the need to update the game system with more information. But our need to enhance the system based on details about the galaxy we know now does not mean that the system was poorly explained back then. In its simplicity, the system worked for what it was.
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Fallon Kell
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Honestly, I suspect the purpose of the rule was to introduce a reason in RAW to prevent players from wanting to roam around the galaxy in starfighters! 8) |
Which, when you think about it, is an odd objective considering how often it happens in the movies.
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Bren
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Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | The resource management aspect of having to preselect jumps also seems in conflict with (1) the more free ranging, open-ended, fast-paced style of space opera |
I do not see a conflict. The limited jumps are only with starfighters, which are primarily presented by the films as being for specific military/Jedi missions. |
Yet we see Luke using his starfighter to go to Dagobah, Bespin, and Tatooine and we see him in the Millenium Falcon going to Alderaan/Death Star 1 and Yavin. We see him in a shuttle going to Endor. So in the original films Luke uses his X-wing as often as he uses a larger vessel. That's the point of conflict. This use of X-wings is continued in the EU and echoed in the use of Jedi starfighters in the prequels. That't why I see some conflict.
| Quote: | | Starfighters would naturally raise eyebrows on even the most unlawful worlds, and would realistically be downright illegal to just fly around the civillized galaxy willy-nilly in. |
True, yet we see Luke taking an X-wing to Bespin and Tatooine and Jedi taking them various places in the prequels. So it is not out of keeping with the films to hand wave the difficulty.
| Quote: | | Bren wrote: | | The resource management aspect of having to preselect jumps also seems in conflict with (1) and (2) with the lack of an available map or listing of all known routes to select possible routes from. |
Not at all. When the astrogation/hyperspace rules were created for this game, no such maps existed. |
I failed to make my point clear. I understand the state of known (or really unknown) mapping in the eighties and nineties quite well. My points are first that without a map actually selecting 10 routes for an astromech droid is either trivial or intensely problematic. Trivial since 10 destinations is about the number of planets listed in the original gazetter. Problematic in that there is no logical way for a player to intelligently choose additional or alternate routes without a map or listing. Thus in the past, we in our game have typbasically ignored selecting routes and just keep the notion of limited choices in the back of our minds. While that works, it is a bit unsatisfying. The second point is that we never see anyone in the films say something like "well I'd love to accompany you in my starfighter, but I don't have Coruscant/Tatooine/Dagobah programmed into my astromech unit/mini nav computer." So creating a resource management issue seems out of keeping with the films and a space opera tone.
| Quote: | | However, being a modern fan of the maps that bring in the logic of spatial relationships to make the galaxy seem more real and make more sense to me, I do see the need to update the game system with more information. |
Yes, I too like having a big map. What sort of updates do you see as desirable? |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Again, given the (WEG) cost of a replacement Nav computer the limited jump idea is plain stupid... Just put it where it belongs, in the trashcan.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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But luke had R2 which can store 10 jump coordinates.. And more than likely got more updates as he went on..
Heck i wouldn't have been surprised if R2 had an improved storage capacity, say 20 or 30 jumps.
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Mikael Hasselstein
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Yet we see Luke using his starfighter to go to Dagobah, Bespin, and Tatooine and we see him in the Millenium Falcon going to Alderaan/Death Star 1 and Yavin. We see him in a shuttle going to Endor. So in the original films Luke uses his X-wing as often as he uses a larger vessel. That's the point of conflict. This use of X-wings is continued in the EU and echoed in the use of Jedi starfighters in the prequels. That't why I see some conflict. |
I think Bren's right - there is definitely conflict. Just Luke's trip to Dagobah gives us HUGE conflicts, and not just for the limited-jump idea.
We see Luke telling Artoo (I paraphrase) "Hey, I'd like to go to Dagobah," and Artoo being surprised. He then says he wants to put it on manual for a while. Now, maybe he just decided to fly in subspace for a little while and then when he got bored with that, he lets Artoo take over. Doubtful.
If there were limited pre-programmed jumps programmed into astromechs, Artoo would not have been surprised and would not have needed to be told that they would be going to Dagobah.
Also, going to manual means one of three things. Either
1) Luke is able to use the Force to manually astro-navigate his way to Dagobah,
2) the whole astrogation-thing is bunk, and just a relic from a statement Han said in ANH, or
3) the TEA is completely off, and Dagobah is really close to both Hoth and Bespin. Astrogation is not even necessary because they're able to go from one place to the other without going to lightspeed.
I don't like any of these three scenarios. Can someone explain it through a different scenario?
I guess the way I align it in my mind is that the movies were never meant to create the sort of consistent gameworld that we (and the authors of the roleplaying game) have built around the movies. So, we need to be 'inspired by' the movies, but not adhere to every nook and cranny of them religiously. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:12 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps when ben appeared to him he also awakened luke's instinctive astrogation abilities.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | I think Bren's right - there is definitely conflict. Just Luke's trip to Dagobah gives us HUGE conflicts, and not just for the limited-jump idea....Can someone explain it through a different scenario? |
Well I'm always happy when I am agreed with. 
To answer your question, like garhkal I presume Luke uses Instinctive Astrogation (the Sense based power) to "feel" his way to Dagobah using the Force. That's the scene that I always assumed inspired the creation of the power.
| Mikael Hasselstein wrote: | | I guess the way I align it in my mind is that the movies were never meant to create the sort of consistent gameworld that we (and the authors of the roleplaying game) have built around the movies. So, we need to be 'inspired by' the movies, but not adhere to every nook and cranny of them religiously. |
That works for me.  |
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