Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3190
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 Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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The other thing to remember is that the prequels are sort of a retroactive element in the grand story.
In my opinion, both Yoda and Mace Windu portrayed as at least as powerful as Palpatine, with Yoda seeming to be more powerful/skilled. However, plot armor is indestructible, so Palps gets the win no matter what.
Essentially, the story had to be written in such a way as to provide some kind of mystery, even though the outcome has been known since 1977.
I also think that GL comes up with great ideas, but is poor at executing them. This plot thing, IMHO, is probably meant to have zero nuance. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10500
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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Jango Fett is a pro. But OK, you guys really do think a wound caused by a distantly fired intense energetic packet of particles fired by a possibly modified blaster weapon purchased probably illegally anywhere in the entire galaxy (possibly even outside the Republic) is more traceable than a physical dart. CSI Coruscant, got it. I guess I'm more old west about blasters. We'll just agree to disagree.
| Dredwulf60 wrote: | In any case, it's obvious that Sidious' plan worked out the way he wanted it to in the end, (Which is mind boggling considering all the moving parts in the machine)...
It's such a convoluted story, it can be hard to make sense of. The more you think about it, the more bizarre it gets. |
| Naaman wrote: | The other thing to remember is that the prequels are sort of a retroactive element in the grand story...
I also think that GL comes up with great ideas, but is poor at executing them. This plot thing, IMHO, is probably meant to have zero nuance. |
I can't really disagree with any of that, but it's still fun to try to make some kind of sense of it... 8)
| Whill wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | But in retrospect, the Jedi should have picked up on the fact that Dooku (leader of the droid army) being the employer of the republic's clone template was at least suspicious, if not an outright giveaway. |
I agree. The movies' primary attempts to address that were (1) Jango expressing to Obi-Wan that he was a rogue who only cared about money, suggesting the possibility that Jango working for multiple employers may not be connected, and (2) "The Dark Side clouds everything." It's not that the Jedi weren't suspicious... The mystery of the clone army wasn't disregarded, but they didn't get much more in the way of clues before RotS... Regardless of why there was a clone army, the Jedi viewed it as their duty to not allow the Republic to be split into two so just happened to need the clone army to fight the separatists anyway. Not knowing the source of a mysterious blessing doesn't mean you won't use the blessing. |
| Naaman wrote: | | Yeah, but it should have been obvious when Mace crashed the party...or are we to believe that Obi-Wan "never saw" Jango at that shindig? |
Obi-Wan tracked Jango to the planet so he knew he was there, and Mace killed Jango at the shindig. I agree that it was obvious to the Jedi that there was possibly some connection between the clone army and the separatist movement, and the Jedi considered that Jango didn't just happen to have employers on both sides of the war that began. However, the Jedi being aware of a connection does not mean they were able to divine what exactly the connection was, or why anyone in the separatist movement would be involved with creating a clone army for the Republic. It was well known that the Republic had no army to fight the droid armies of the separatists. The separatists could have easily separated from the Republic without much contest if the Republic had no army. People usually don't create soldiers for their enemies. And even if they did, that doesn't change the fact that the clone army was needed to defend the union of the Republic. The Jedi's only other option would be to refuse to use the clone army because of its mysterious connection to the enemy, and let the droid armies split the Republic in half uncontested, but that was not an acceptable option for them. So they used the gift-horse army, fought the war, and hoped they would figure it all out but didn't before the army was used against them to initiate the Sith revenge, Palpatine ruling an empire with no Jedi to challenge his authority.
I think that a lot of viewers are caught up in knowing the outcome and future of the prequels. Even suspicious, the Jedi still took the separatist movement at face value. The Jedi completely failed to realize that Palpatine was the Sith Master and who wanted to decimate the Jedi and form an empire. The Dark Side clouding everything was a sentiment expressed in both AotC and RotJ. Learning of a mysterious clone army available for the Republic right when they needed it didn't stop them from using it and falling into the trap set for them. It would be a leap of logic for the Jedi to conclude that the whole entire war is a trap so that the chancellor can destroy the Jedi order and form a Sith-ruled empire just from the fact that the creation of the clone army is suspicious and possibly related to the separatist movement.
| Dredwulf60 wrote: | As far as leading the jedi to Kamino, well who can say how much Jango was a part of that grand scheme. Seems a bit of a stretch to let a merc in on such a Galactic conspiracy to that degree.
And how would that go? Dooku telling Jango to kill Zam any way he can, but to make sure the hit can be traced to Kamino? (even though Kamino has been removed from the archive) or did he give him the dart directly and tell him to use it to kill Zam? And if so, why did he not tell him to use it to kill Padme; which would be a more direct link?
...But infinitely MORE traceable if Kamino was a generally known planet. |
I would have to say that the Kamino dart couldn't penetrate the shielded window of Padme's bedroom - That's why it wasn't used. The droid carrying the big millipede things actually spread open a hole in the shield, and then cut out a circle of glass to quietly insert the creatures into the room. Then the creatures snuck up to her and almost poisoned her as she slept.
Jango obviously was aware that Count Dooku was the man who recruited him to create the clone army and also the public leader of the separatist movement. So Jango was in on a very basic level of the conspiracy that the war was being manufactured, but I feel he wouldn't know (or perhaps even care) to what ultimate purpose. The fact that Jango was a well-paid merc is what would make him best for the job - No non-monetary loyalties or causes, and no one else who could outbid his monetary loyalty to Dooku. I'm certain Jango knew nothing of Sidious or Palpatine's involvement in both the clone army and the separatist movement because he wouldn't need to know. Viceroy Gunray, the Geonosian Archduke and General Grievous knew of Darth Sidious, but they didn't know his true identity or the Sith involvement in the creation of the clone army. Dooku knew the most about the conspiracy but even he wasn't expecting to be killed and replaced by Anakin as the #2 Sith Lord.
I think one thing that Palpatine didn't plan on was his enforcer Maul being killed by a mere padawan. Palpatine never underestimated Obi-Wan again. The fact that the Kamino system was removed from the record is what forced it to be investigated further in person. I'm sure that Palpatine knew that Kamino not being in the archives would slow the Jedi down but not prevent them from finding it eventually. It does seem that Jango was surprised Obi-Wan found Kamino so quickly, but it was still part of the plan for the Jedi to find it sooner or later.
| Naaman wrote: | | Essentially, the story had to be written in such a way as to provide some kind of mystery, even though the outcome has been known since 1977. |
Some newer and more casual Star Wars fans didn't know that Palpatine became the Emperor, so the 'Who is the Sith Lord' was a mystery not solved for them until RotS. When I saw AotC, I knew that the clone army would eventually become the Empire's stormtrooper army, but I still didn't know exactly how it would happen. I was just as surprised as the next guy when Order 66 went down, so there was still some mystery even for me.
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Dredwulf60
Line Captain
Joined: 07 Jan 2016
Posts: 911
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| Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:52 am Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | But OK, you guys really do think a wound caused by a distantly fired intense energetic packet of particles fired by a possibly modified blaster weapon purchased probably illegally anywhere in the entire galaxy (possibly even outside the Republic) is more traceable than a physical dart. CSI Coruscant, got it. I guess I'm more old west about blasters. We'll just agree to disagree. |
| Dredwulf60 wrote: | Presumably every GM will make their own decisions on such matters, and it may vary from planet to planet and even campaign to campaign depending on the tone.
Sometimes you may want it to be on par with the old west: catching them red-handed, reliance on eyewitnesses and/or possession of stolen goods.
Sometimes you may want it to be on par with classic detective work.
Sometimes you would like it to be on par with modern investigative techniques or beyond.
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No I don't 'Really' believe it. I disbelieve it actually. But I will suspend that disbelief in order to give my game a certain flavour.
That flavour being a modern crime drama where if the PCs execute someone in the street, they had better take the time to dispose of the body. And if that can't be done, they might want to do some process to sanitize the weapon they used or dispose of it.
And if they get caught with the murder weapon, there is a good chance the authorities can use some sort of science to link it.
Unbelievable yes, but the authorities got to the crime scene on a repulsorlift speeder...so...all bets are off. DNA matching would be as sci fi as fingerprinting in the Old West...to say nothing of using a laser to fluoresce latent finger print ridge impressions after fuming with cyanoacrylate and dyeing with Rhodamine 6G.
My attempted assassin of padme reference was just an off-hand personal retcon; to give credence to the theory that space-forensics exist. |
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