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atgxtg
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 Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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It does seem though that there is more going on than meets the eye (or maybe it is just another BIG plot hole).
Personaly, I find the 20 yuear gap between the end of the Clone Wars, and the Rebellions first victory a bit hard to swallow. And if the rebellion hasn7t been very successful/signficant, then the massive buildup seems out of place.
Maybe the Vongmight be a reason, but like Bren I don't go deep into the EU stuff, and we allknow George Lucas doesn't go deep into the EU, either.
So maybe there was more going on. Hedi hunting, Seperatists mop ups, maybe even a war with the Hutts? . |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I do pay attention to the EU, so the Vong invasion is as good a reason as any.
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed May 25, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | ...Maybe the Vongmight be a reason...So maybe there was more going on. Hedi hunting, Seperatists mop ups, maybe even a war with the Hutts? |
I personally found the Vong threat a weak post facto rationalization of the buildup. I believe that was also part of Visions of the Future and the whole Chiss in hiding stuff, which I didn't much enjoy either. But hey we all get to make up whatever explanation we want. And with Palpatine it is hard to go wrong with multiple reasons for his plans. |
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | It does seem though that there is more going on than meets the eye (or maybe it is just another BIG plot hole).
Personaly, I find the 20 yuear gap between the end of the Clone Wars, and the Rebellions first victory a bit hard to swallow. And if the rebellion hasn7t been very successful/signficant, then the massive buildup seems out of place.
...So maybe there was more going on. Hedi hunting, Seperatists mop ups, maybe even a war with the Hutts? |
It's not a plot hole. Of course there would be many rebellions against the Empire in the years between trilogies as the Empire was tightening its grip on the galaxy. Separatist remnants, fugitive Jedi, and groups that just don't like the further loss of freedom that came with the Empire. (But I imagine that Hutt Space was allowed to maintain its freedom as a client state of the Empire because they officially supported the Republic in the Clone Wars (while also working with the CIS under the table and profiting greatly from the conflict).
All these many independent rebellions were all supressed by the Empire one-by-one. Most of these overt rebellions took place outside the Core Worlds. Yes, it would have been unrealistic if the Alliance to Restore the Republic had existed for a couple decades and just finally had their first major victory right before IV, so that's why it makes more sense that the Alliance didn't exist all that time.
In the years following the formation of the Empire, let's say three or so seperate underground Core World rebellions quietly begin to take shape. They don't fight in any battles but instead slowly worked to undermine Imperial control. Then a couple years before IV, these three independent human rebel groups (based in the Alderaan, Chandrila and Corellian systems) combine forces to organize an alliance of rebel groups. Their operations were still mostly covert until the battle where rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Death Star...
So the "period of civil war" that IV's opening crawl refers to may even be considered to go back 24 years to the beginning of the Seperatist movement but includes the Clone Wars, all the many unsuccessful rebellions the Empire had supressed and the conflict with the Alliance. However the Rebel Alliance could have still been a relatively new threat in all that time period.
And for George Lucas, there were no extragalactic threats and there didn't need to be. It's mostly all explained right there in the movies (and by our own history). In Episode III...
OBI-WAN KENOBI: The Chancellor will not be able to control the thousands of star systems without keeping the Senate intact.
The end of III shows that the Death Star was already under construction... Then in Episode IV when the Death Star is complete and first becomes operational...
GRAND MOFF TARKIN: The Imperial Senate will no longer be of any concern to us. I have just received word that the Emperor has dissolved the council permanently. The last remnants of the old Republic have been swept away.
COMMANDER TAGGE: That's impossible. How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?
GRAND MOFF TARKIN: The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.
Tyranny breeds rebellion. And rebellion breeds more oppression...
PRINCESS LEIA ORGANA: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the most star systems will slip through your fingers.
GRAND MOFF TARKIN: Not after we demonstrate the power of this station...
The reason for the massive military build-up is obvious. If you are running a tyrannical dictatorship, you are going to have to smack down rebellions. The Emperor would have expected that. There are many ways to do it. Access to clones suggests numerical superiority. Technogical superiority (Star Destroyers, etc.)...
But all of that was just biding time until the Death Star was complete. All you really need is weapon of mass destruction and a demonstration of it's ability so everyone knows the threat is real. Like Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Like Alderaan. The military build-up was to deal with the rebellions before the Death Star Wars ready, but after it was ready, all they had to do was destroy a couple planets and that would end those rebellions real quick. Most of the rebellions wouldn't risk an entire planet of innocent lives being lost for the sake of their cause. Fear of the Death Star would have kept the systems in line. If the Empire could destroy a Core World, they could destroy any planet.
After the loss of the Death Star, the Alliance's rebellion gains momentum and grows as the Empire raises taxes and further opresses the galaxy. All that military build-up is still needed to be used. A new Death Star began to be constructed wibut this one did not have the disadvantages of being the first station of its kind built and also there was no need to hide the allocation of funds from a senate. So DS II gets built much faster with the same purpose as the original but, it is also intended to be used in a plot to destroy the Rebel Alliance, which would make the galaxy lose hope until the DS was complete and could "fear" planets into submission.
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Good ideas Whill. Tyranny always needs force to maintain its rule. Also, even without knowledge of an extra galactic threat the Empire did not control the entire galaxy so some force might seem necesassary to protect the borders of the Empire, to keep the independents like the Hutts in line, etc.
After a destructive, wide scale conflict like the Clone Wars, the Empire would want to feel safe from even the possibility of another rebellion by disaffected internal forces or from conflict or pressure with outside forces e.g. the Hutts and other independents or anything coming out of the Unknown Regions. All this was probably used in propaganda to justify the military buildup. After all the Clone Wars grew because the Republic did not have a centralized, strong military to keep systems in line. That's what allowed the CIS to break away and even what allowed the earlier blockade of Naboo by the Trade Federation. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: |
It's not a plot hole. Of course there would be many rebellions against the Empire in the years between trilogies as the Empire was tightening its grip on the galaxy. |
I'm inclined to agree with you, but it doesn't look that way in the films. Based on what we see in Episodes III and IV, I get the disnctimpression that everybody put thier heads in the sand for 20 years.
I hate that "first victory" line in the opeing crawl to Star Wars, and think it was probably an oversight. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Well, I do pay attention to the EU, so the Vong invasion is as good a reason as any. |
hey, no offense intened. Each of us have thier own take on the EU. And the Vong for that matter. If the Vong work for you, great.
I choose to interpret anything that isn't in the films or the new Clone Wars series as "optional" at best. |
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Whill
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| Posted: Thu May 26, 2011 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Each of us have thier own take... I choose to interpret anything that isn't in the films or the new Clone Wars series as "optional" at best. |
I choose to interpret anything that isn't in the films including the new Clone Wars series as "optional" at best.
But each of us do indeed have our own take.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Whill wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | Each of us have thier own take... I choose to interpret anything that isn't in the films or the new Clone Wars series as "optional" at best. |
I choose to interpret anything that isn't in the films including the new Clone Wars series as "optional" at best.
But each of us do indeed have our own take. |
Yup. I'd be more inclined towards your "filtering" method too, if I were not running a Clone Wars era campaign. Not that the TV series is causing me any great continuity problems.
Frankly, I'd like to filter out parts of Episodes I, II, and III as well.
I probably have a bias for having something going on after Episode III, too, since I will need to find things for the PCs to do after "Order 66". Assuming they survive it. Somehow, hiding out of some backwater planet, sitting on thier thumbs for 20 years, waiting for Luke to grow up, just doesn't seem very appealing play. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Somehow, hiding out of some backwater planet, sitting on thier thumbs for 20 years, waiting for Luke to grow up, just doesn't seem very appealing play. |
No that doesn't sound too fun.  Though one option would be to just jump forward ~ 20 years after Order 66 and let the players either play older, possibly wiser, possibly more cynical versions of their characters or alternately play younger characters who are possibly children of the original characters. This is pretty much what A. Dumas did in Twenty Years After, his sequel to The Three Musketeers. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri May 27, 2011 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | Somehow, hiding out of some backwater planet, sitting on thier thumbs for 20 years, waiting for Luke to grow up, just doesn't seem very appealing play. |
No that doesn't sound too fun. Though one option would be to just jump forward ~ 20 years after Order 66 and let the players either play older, possibly wiser, possibly more cynical versions of their characters or alternately play younger characters who are possibly children of the original characters. This is pretty much what A. Dumas did in Twenty Years After, his sequel to The Three Musketeers. |
And if you prefer fantasy you can read Steven Brusts 'Phoenix Guards' about nobles in the city watch of Adrilankha (where humans, called Easterners, live in the slums). He also wrote a sequel, called 'Two Hundred Years After', given that Dragearians are quite long lived, about the same persons well, two hundred years after...
Well, at least he is very open with his 'influences'.. 
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun May 29, 2011 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | Somehow, hiding out of some backwater planet, sitting on thier thumbs for 20 years, waiting for Luke to grow up, just doesn't seem very appealing play. |
No that doesn't sound too fun. Though one option would be to just jump forward ~ 20 years after Order 66 and let the players either play older, possibly wiser, possibly more cynical versions of their characters or alternately play younger characters who are possibly children of the original characters. This is pretty much what A. Dumas did in Twenty Years After, his sequel to The Three Musketeers. |
I considered doing the 20 year jump, but decided against it. One of the PCs is playing a clne, and he be pushing 60 biologically. Also, I7d have to work up soem big Cp awards to handle 20 years.
Currently, I am thinking of having them a;ly with the remaining seperatists (somewhst interesting since there is some bad blood there). I am alos thinking of having Yoda send the Jedi off on some mission that would require the group to travel into the Unknow Regions or perhaps even leave the Galaxy. That way I could run a bit more open game for a few years before Imperal Domination. I could have the Empire send someone off after them into unknown Space, and run it a bit more like Logan's Run than the Fugitive.
Sorry for the threadjack... |
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon May 30, 2011 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | ...I could have the Empire send someone off after them into unknown Space, and run it a bit more like Logan's Run than the Fugitive. |
Well I can sure see the clone being all red blinking palm Logan's runnish. His bio clock is already running out of ticks and tocks. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2011 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ell I can sure see the clone being all red blinking palm Logan's runnish. His bio clock is already running out of ticks and tocks. |
The book is an even better fit, since the cut off age was lower.With Clone aging, he'd just about be the right age. 
Maybe I should have used Farscape as a example, instead? I was just trying to sum things up. |
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