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Attributes, revised
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2022 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In general, I dislike arbitrary caps on skill levels. If a player wants to spend CP and time improving a skill, let them; it's their CP to spend. As a GM, it behooves you to motivate them to diversify by presenting them with a variety of challenges that require the use of a variety of skills to solve. Simply telling them that they have to stop once they reach a certain point is, IMO, a cop-out.

The advantage of a Force Attribute is two-fold; 1) it is more representative of the SWU in the sense that strength in the Force varies from person to person, and 2) it allows a starting character the option of making greater use of the Force from the get-go, as they have a much better chance of being able to activate and use low level powers. A PC starting with 3D Force has better odds of power activation than one with 1D Force, even though the 1D Force PC can potentially exceed the 1D Force character at some point; they will just have to expend more CP to do so.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The advantage of a Force Attribute is two-fold; 1) it is more representative of the SWU in the sense that strength in the Force varies from person to person, and 2) it allows a starting character the option of making greater use of the Force from the get-go, as they have a much better chance of being able to activate and use low level powers. A PC starting with 3D Force has better odds of power activation than one with 1D Force, even though the 1D Force PC can potentially exceed the 1D Force character at some point; they will just have to expend more CP to do so.

And the idea being floated here has all of that, plus more. Adding a skill limit somewhere down the road does not at all take anything away from what the Force attribute means from the get-go.

CRMcNeill wrote:
In general, I dislike arbitrary caps on skill levels. If a player wants to spend CP and time improving a skill, let them; it's their CP to spend.

From this, I'm not sure that you understand what was being said here. But maybe you do and are just adding an unnecessary adjective. It sounds like you might really mean you dislike caps, period.

Like them or not, no one said anything about the caps being "arbitrary". Arbitrary means, "based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system." A more mathematical definition is, "of unspecified value."

Mamatried threw out for starters, 'attribute die code plus 3D'. I countered with 'attribute die code plus 5D (plus an additional 1D for each attribute die code above 5D).' Neither of these are "random" or "unspecified." They are both based on a "system" having formulas which generates specific values.

And Force skill caps would have a "reason" so they are not merely a "personal whim." In addition to what you said about starting out, GMs using a Force attribute may also want the attribute to be a reflection of the longer term Force potential of the character.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Simply telling them that they have to stop once they reach a certain point is, IMO, a cop-out.

No where did Mamatried or I ever even imply that the limits would be held secret from the players, and then when a player of a Force PC wants to exceed them, "Surprise! You're maxed out!" A cop-out? That would be an out-and-out d!ck move. In my game, any upper skill limits for Force skills based on the starting attribute value would be communicated to the player before the character would even be made. So a player wanting to play a Force character would know the skill cap before deciding how much attribute dice to allocate to The Force. In effect, the player would be choosing the PC's skill cap in advance.

If I did implement this, any of my campaigns would likely be over before the PC would ever advance the Force skills that high, so this likely wouldn't ever actually limit a PC in my game anyway. So it would most likely end up being a theoretical guideline for upper limits of NPCs.

CRMcNeill wrote:
As a GM, it behooves you to motivate them to diversify by presenting them with a variety of challenges that require the use of a variety of skills to solve.

Exactly! This is what I do, and it is actually a detergent to players hyper-focusing on one or few skills. I don't think I've ever had a player that increased any non-Force base skill above 8D or had more than two 8D skills. When my players get a character's signature skill or two to 8D, they flesh out the character, maybe advancing a couple other skills to 6D along the way. I don't think any of my players have ever raised a Force skill above 6D, and that has been without formal skill limits in place. If the GM is successfully motivating players to diversify their characters by presenting them with a variety of challenges, the players recognize the need to make their characters more well-rounded. I've been 100% successful at this so far.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Attributes, revised Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

0D - An attribute value of 0D means the character cannot have or use any skills of that attribute. Technical is usually the only normal attribute a sentient character would have a 0D in.

0D+1 - An attribute value of 0D+1 means that the character may have select skills at 1D or higher but they do not normally have access to unimproved skills of these attributes (no attribute defaults).

0D+2 - An attribute value of 0D+2 mean that the character may have select skills at 1D or higher and may occasionally perform very simple tasks of unimproved skills of these attributes, the circumstances of which as determined by the GM.


This caught my eye for a number of reasons (and brought back memories). I had written a very lengthy (a few pages hand written anyway) discussion into some work I was developing regarding Attributes below 1D. This was work I was doing for some D6 space supplements I was working on back in 2006-2007 (never finished or published). I had referred to attributes below 1D as Proto Attributes and the idea was to flesh out strange aliens life forms that may not fit the normal expected forms or may not even be sentient by normal definitions. I had intended these proto attributes to reflect natural limitations or deficiencies a life form might have. I was also tying in other rules to expand D6 rules for creatures and other entities beyond what was designed into SW and D6 Space.

I have often over the last few years wanted to try to polish up some of those old rules and publish them in some form - but the chaos of the last decade has prevented me from doing so. Right now I am unsure where all of my notes are (mostly because I have been packing and moving around a lot - and it looks like I need to move again so a lot has been in boxes or in storage indefinitely since about 2012).

Would there be any interest in any of this if I could find it?
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Attributes, revised Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
I had referred to attributes below 1D as Proto Attributes... Would there be any interest in any of this if I could find it?

Of course. We'd love to see your work.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the topic of 0D attributes, should these or can these allowed to any attribute, or maybe only mechanical and technical.

I would argue 0D dex makes most if not all bacsic movement near impossible
and 0D knowledge I would need pthe berson braindead.

0D on perception you can not notie anything, you have no senses at all and is idk sead, at least not really living. even an amobea have some senses

0D strenght...well I am not sure you survibe the falling rain or the blowing in the wind with this, and how doe you grow up at all being that fragile?

so I like the 0D proto attribute aspect presented, but I can only see them on the two skills you do not need to live or think or move, making me think that the 0D should apply to these only , but a 0D+1 I can see could be argued will allow at least basic movement and some biomechanical sensing and reaction like that of a single cell
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, there will be some lifeforms that may not have the three Creature attributes: DEX, STR, and PER. Shards in their natural state are sessile so do not have DEX, but they do have the rest of the attributes.

But braindead people and amoebas don't really need stats.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
On the topic of 0D attributes, should these or can these allowed to any attribute, or maybe only mechanical and technical.

I would argue 0D dex makes most if not all bacsic movement near impossible
and 0D knowledge I would need pthe berson braindead.

0D on perception you can not notie anything, you have no senses at all and is idk sead, at least not really living. even an amobea have some senses

0D strenght...well I am not sure you survibe the falling rain or the blowing in the wind with this, and how doe you grow up at all being that fragile?

so I like the 0D proto attribute aspect presented, but I can only see them on the two skills you do not need to live or think or move, making me think that the 0D should apply to these only , but a 0D+1 I can see could be argued will allow at least basic movement and some biomechanical sensing and reaction like that of a single cell


This was all things I had covered in my notes. I will try to find them and find some time to transcribe. In the case of 0D Dex I had referenced lack of reasonable means of movement or interaction - or very limited abilities for +1 or +2. I had essentially allowed 0D in almost all attributes in my notes, except maybe Strength as that would represent a structure so fragile the slightest breeze would shatter it, though I would need to double check my notes to verify. I need to find them first which is the larger problem given my current situation.
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