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Obi-Wan Kenobi [SPOILERS ALLOWED]
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, Pak.

pakman wrote:
Whill.... regarding...

Quote:
If the director didn't know if they will be "allowed" to use Williams filmic musical themes.....

Just to let you know, as someone who has some fringe experience in filmmaking and other experience in productions dealing with various IP and licensed works - this is absolutely believable to me.

I doubt this was a "lets ask a someone for their subjective feeling allow" vs. "we don't know yet from legal if we can use the specific pieces of music for this specific streaming production at this time".

The licensing of works can get quite sticky and complex at times - and depending on arrangements - even timing, or media type - and even believe it or not - the methods a commercial work is charged to the public - can impact how a work can be used. (had one project almost not happen because an work was going to be part of a general admission and not a pre-paid per seat venue - it changed all the paperwork and permissions).

Sometimes due to timelines, legal delays and other issues - this is NOT known before production begins.

Regarding specifics, just for clarification I wasn't referring to them getting permission to track previous recordings into the series. That is not generally the way these Star Wars things are ever done. I was referring to the new shows' orchestra newly recording existing themes into the new show's score, which of course would have to be written by the composer that way.

Regarding the timeline, Obi-Wan Kenobi had been in development for many years. And we are talking about the awesome legalistic powers of Disney, a giant corporation who owns Star Wars. Case in point, as I already referred to, Rogue One and Solo both made extensive use of existing Williams themes (beyond the new theme he wrote for Solo), and they were very successful at it. They even resurrected the ANH Imperial Motif. I read that the production of OBK did even get Williams to watch the entire series without scoring and give his input, but it seems to me like that was done a courtesy and not a legal requirement.

Quote:
Also regarding the director "dictate" - some productions the director has a lot of control - other times, not. (this is why many actors also get into producing, writing and directing - more control). Not every director is the central figure in a production - there are a lot of variables, personality, contracts and egos involved at times.

I have no illusions that Star Wars directors (outside of Abrams and Johnson) have absolute freedom and control. But your premise that the director of OWK didn't have control over the music doesn't stack up for multiple reasons in this case.

It presumes that the director wanted to use more existing Williams themes than they did. If the composer is a reliable witness (and I have no reason to think she wouldn't be), her account states that the director didn't know so advised her to proceed as if they wouldn't have approval. That is not the same thing as the director saying she had made a request but we don't have an answer yet.

Also, it presumes that Disney/Lucasfilm/Kennedy wouldn't want them to use existing Williams themes for some reason, and that simply does not compute for me. Why wouldn't they? Are they so obtuse to not realize that Williams' SW film scores help suspend disbelief and sell the audience on the narrative and emotions of the scenes? All I know is the end result of the OWK scores is unsatisfactory, and I feel they would have been improved with more musical continuity for this inter-trilogy story. If I, Joe Q. Starwarsfan, understands that, how could they not? To put the scoring into visual terms, watching OWK between the two trilogies is like going from high-def vibrant color to fuzzy black and white then back to high-def vibrant color.

If a director is passionate about some aspect of a production, they try to get it done. If the composer's account can be trusted than director obviously didn't feel that strongly about the music because she didn't go to bat for using the Williams themes before the final episode to have a better musical continuity from RotS. Even without absolute control, the director apparently didn't even try and argue the case.

Quote:
Not arguing here - just giving some additional insight as someone with experience in dealing with IP and productions.

I do agree however, with some of the other comments regarding how and when should be used etc.

OK. The RO and Solo films were not scored by Williams but the scores were fantastic. The composers organically incorporated Williams themes along with their own in artful syntheses. I feel that a greater use of Williams themes in OWK may have helped me look past some of the imperfections. But another factor might be that the new main theme that Williams supplied to OWK is not nearly as inspired as the one he provided for Solo, IMO. If it had felt more "Williams" to me, that might help me not feel like something was missing while watching these episodes.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, while I agree with Whill on his points, having also previously worked in video and multimedia production Pakman is right about how IP and licenses can be a slippery slope and complicated at best.
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DougRed4
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Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall I enjoyed OWK, but understand many of the criticisms, too.

One thing that did surprise me, was - after reading through every post of this thread - I didn't see a complaint about the thing that bugged me (by far) the most in the entire series.

The good guys are fleeing from Vader in his Star Destroyer, in a "chase" that made the one in TLJ seem decent by comparison. The chase went on an on, and apparently the Star Destroyer wasn't able to destroy this much smaller ship; it just sort of fired helplessly and ineffectively, while neither gaining nor losing distance from their target.

But that wasn't the worst of it. Obi-Wan would casually mention that he needed to leave, and the other character replied with a half-hearted "no, Obi-Wan, don't leave". Cut to another scene of the Star Destroyer ineffectively firing at the smaller ship (who must have "known a few maneuvers" like drifting lazily to the left).

Then they carried on a conversation about it for what seemed like 10 minutes, with ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE OF URGENCY AT ALL!!! Finally, Obi-Wan decides to take off, to draw off Vader and allow the other ship to get away.

That scene drove me crazy and was maddening to me, as it was just so poorly executed and completely lacking in dramatic tension. No angst or emotion as Obi-Wan makes a decision to sacrifice himself. No threat from the Star Destroyer chasing them. No real urgency at all as they talked about this big, pivotal decision as if they were discussing what toppings to order on pizza. Rolling Eyes

I did love the bits with Palpatine and Qui-Gon at the end, and overall enjoyed the story and thought the show was well done. Not sure how they could shoehorn in a potential second season (I think forcing Vader to be a part of it could be a big mistake, if they have more direct confrontations with Obi-Wan, as it could stretch believability to do so).
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your review.

DougRed4 wrote:
One thing that did surprise me, was - after reading through every post of this thread - I didn't see a complaint about the thing that bugged me (by far) the most in the entire series.

The good guys are fleeing from Vader in his Star Destroyer, in a "chase" that made the one in TLJ seem decent by comparison. The chase went on an on, and apparently the Star Destroyer wasn't able to destroy this much smaller ship; it just sort of fired helplessly and ineffectively, while neither gaining nor losing distance from their target.

But that wasn't the worst of it. Obi-Wan would casually mention that he needed to leave, and the other character replied with a half-hearted "no, Obi-Wan, don't leave". Cut to another scene of the Star Destroyer ineffectively firing at the smaller ship (who must have "known a few maneuvers" like drifting lazily to the left).

Then they carried on a conversation about it for what seemed like 10 minutes, with ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE OF URGENCY AT ALL!!! Finally, Obi-Wan decides to take off, to draw off Vader and allow the other ship to get away.

That scene drove me crazy and was maddening to me, as it was just so poorly executed and completely lacking in dramatic tension. No angst or emotion as Obi-Wan makes a decision to sacrifice himself. No threat from the Star Destroyer chasing them. No real urgency at all as they talked about this big, pivotal decision as if they were discussing what toppings to order on pizza. Rolling Eyes

Thror and I did actually touch on that in this thread...

Whill wrote:
In the final episode, that relatively little "Path" ship took a lot of hits while being chased by Vader's star destroyer, long enough for them to have all that dialogue and slow goodbyes before Obi-Wan left it in the shuttle. If that ship was that tough and just as fast as a star destroyer, then why didn't Vader launch any TIEs? That way Vader wouldn't have had to choose between the refugees and Obi-Wan.

Whill wrote:
...Then somehow Vader gets up to his star destroyer super quickly and his star destroyer pursues the escaping ship at the same speed.
...
ThrorII wrote:
That freighter has Millenium Falcon level plot armor!!!!???!!!

It survived so many hits for so long that it has even superior armor, 42D level plot armor.

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