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Force skill starting skill dice allocation
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 28, 2021 8:00 pm    Post subject: Force skill starting skill dice allocation Reply with quote

So on Facebook there seems to be confusion among some people about starting Force skill rules in RAW. I didn't think there was any confusion here, but I thought I would create this post for the lurkers if no one else.

There are two ways to create characters: by choosing an existing template or by creating your own template.

If you choose a Force character of an existing template, then you may allocate starting skill dice to any Force skill that the character starts with.

If you choose to create your own template with Force skills, they cost 1D of starting attribute dice for each skill and the Force skill die code value is 1D. You may still choose to allocate starting skill dice to any Force skill listed. Since you can allocate a max of 2D to any skills, any Force skills on the template can start out at 1D-3D when the character is done being made.

See R&E p.28 and 32. The confusion for some seems to be that the Creating a New Template section that indicates Force skills starting at 1D coming out of attribute dice does not state the earlier rule for Finishing a Template, so more than one person thought that meant created templates can't allocate skill dice to Force skills, when there is no prohibition stated for that. It wouldn't make any sense if created templates can't have starting skill dice allocated to Force skills but published templates can. The rule for having Force skills in the first place coming out of attribute dice does not undo or change the earlier rule for applying starting skill dice. They are talking about two different things. Allocating starting skill dice to Force skills applies to both template types (player created and published).

I'm just curious, has anyone here ran into that player confusion about the rules?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only confusion i've ever seen, was with new players, thinking they could (with the templates) assign a skill die to one of the powers, they don't have...
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Straxus
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAW is a bit confusing IMO regarding Force skills, since it uses attribute dice at char gen, but then skill points later on. That's why I took the leap to using a Force Attribute, and sense, control and alter are skills that default to that attribute.

My players don't read too much rules on their own, so they tend to do what I tell them to do Razz
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My reading has always been thus:

If not using a Template, you can use 1 of your Attribute Dice to buy access to 1 Force Skill at 1D. You can do this up to 3 times, at a cost of 3D (total) Attribute dice, giving you 1D in each of the 3 force skills.

You may, when assigning skill dice, assign them to any force skill you actually have, subject to the usual maximum of 2D per skill. Thus, you can start the game with up to 3D in each Force Skill, and with 1D left over for other skills.

A theoretical "I'm A Jedi who can do nothing else" build would look like this:

Dex 4D (total attribute dice 4D)
*Lightsaber 5D
KNO 2D (6D)
MECH 2D (8D)
PER 3D (11D)
STR 2D (13D)
TECH 2D (15D)

Control 3D, Sense 3D, Alter 3D. They would have 21 Force Powers (First at 1D, second at 1D+1, third @ 1D+2, 4th @ 2D, 5th @ 2D+1, 6th @ 2D+2, 7th @3D, over 3 skills).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
They would have 21 Force Powers (First at 1D, second at 1D+1, third @ 1D+2, 4th @ 2D, 5th @ 2D+1, 6th @ 2D+2, 7th @3D, over 3 skills).


I've often thought the 1 power learned, per pip, SHOULD have only applied for INCREASING the skills in game. If starting out, you get (or should get) one power per full D you assign.. So that 3d/3d/3d guy would (to me) have 9 powers, not 21.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
They would have 21 Force Powers (First at 1D, second at 1D+1, third @ 1D+2, 4th @ 2D, 5th @ 2D+1, 6th @ 2D+2, 7th @3D, over 3 skills).


I've often thought the 1 power learned, per pip, SHOULD have only applied for INCREASING the skills in game. If starting out, you get (or should get) one power per full D you assign.. So that 3d/3d/3d guy would (to me) have 9 powers, not 21.


My line of reasoning is twofold:
1) The prescribed rule is that you get 1 free power per pip, if your master knows it. Since you have to increase your skills by pip (even if you're working in meatier chunks in character creation, you were presumably still doing it by pip while you were learning), your character would get powers by pip, as well.

2) Nowhere in the books (that I am aware of) is your interpretation supported.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I put together all the force rules here.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:

My line of reasoning is twofold:
1) The prescribed rule is that you get 1 free power per pip, if your master knows it. Since you have to increase your skills by pip (even if you're working in meatier chunks in character creation, you were presumably still doing it by pip while you were learning), your character would get powers by pip, as well.

2) Nowhere in the books (that I am aware of) is your interpretation supported.


That may be, however like i mentioned in that linked thread (thanks krytos), the wording says "a character MAY be taught a skill, every time he improves a force power"... That to me, indicates IMPROVING in game...

Then you add to that, if a 'starting jedi' can start at 21 force skills, (and taking a two power skill equals Two skills, such as accelerate other's healing), there are ONLY (by the core R&E rule book), 37 skills, that means, a Starting out PC, is already well over 1/2 the way to learning all the powers... Closer to 2/3rds..
To ME, that just doesn't sound like they're a "Minor" jedi, or apprentice/padawan...
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
MrNexx wrote:

My line of reasoning is twofold:
1) The prescribed rule is that you get 1 free power per pip, if your master knows it. Since you have to increase your skills by pip (even if you're working in meatier chunks in character creation, you were presumably still doing it by pip while you were learning), your character would get powers by pip, as well.

2) Nowhere in the books (that I am aware of) is your interpretation supported.


That may be, however like i mentioned in that linked thread (thanks krytos), the wording says "a character MAY be taught a skill, every time he improves a force power"... That to me, indicates IMPROVING in game...


That is your interpretation, though, not what is written. By your interpretation, they should only have 1 power, because they never improved their Force Skills in game. My interpretation, however, is they improved their Force Skills repeatedly... six times... just "off screen".

Quote:

Then you add to that, if a 'starting jedi' can start at 21 force skills, (and taking a two power skill equals Two skills, such as accelerate other's healing), there are ONLY (by the core R&E rule book), 37 skills, that means, a Starting out PC, is already well over 1/2 the way to learning all the powers... Closer to 2/3rds..
To ME, that just doesn't sound like they're a "Minor" jedi, or apprentice/padawan...


This is a starting Jedi, however, who has devoted significant resources to their Jedi training. This is a starting Jedi who barely knows anything EXCEPT being a Jedi, and obviously had a trainer of significant skill in doing so, since they were able to train to 3D in all three skills.

Your method is not too far off from saying "Well, sure, your wookiee has an 8D in Brawl, but that doesn't mean you're going to be able to fight a Gamorrean... you've never fought a Gamorrean before."

If you want to punitively ignore the written rules, why not go with "You get 3 powers, plus 3d6, representing the number of powers you were able to learn?" That at least represents the potential, under the rules, while providing a reasonable restriction on your masters' knowledge... and "masters'" is deliberate, because, for example, while Anakin was Obi-Wan's padawan, Obi-Wan was not his sole teacher.
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