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garhkal
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 Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 12:01 am Post subject: |
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To be honest i don't know ANY WEG book that lists firearm stats for a .50 cal barret.
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Pel
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:36 am Post subject: |
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While they don't mention it by name, I'm fairly certain that's what they had in mind with the Exotac Predator you listed. Other, smaller caliber models with greater range have entered service since then but to my knowledge there's nothing larger than the Barrett.
It just took one or two WEG designers 7 years ('90-'97) to work in a truly massive blaster rifle after watching Navy SEALs. 
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Rake wrote: | | Sorry, I don't think I was as clear as I could have been in the initial post. Basically, I have been ignoring fire rate for weapons and allowing the players to fire as many times as they want in a round with the -1D for each initial action. So, obviously, it seems like I need to be using fire rate. I have seen people discussing recoil on this forum and thought it would be something to address the situation. Also, do you all use fire rate? |
This has been discussed recently in some other thread, so the solutions should still be fresh.
It's going to come down to what effect you want recoil to have. Is the goal to reduce the number of shots fired, or the number of successful hits? Or something else?
What I can tell you as someone who shoots for a living (everything from heavy machine guns down to a handgun), recoil has almost nothing to do with strength. The more skilled shooters are able to control recoil and offset its effects better than the less skilled ones. Assuming two shooters are identical in all other ways, I have my doubts that a strength advantage would help a stronger person to shoot any more rapidly. There was an experiment done by Colion Noir on the effects of physical strength and shooting (specifically, whether it helps to control recoil). Here's a link to the vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT9IamQhSeI
Then, you look at the fastest shooters in real life, and none of them are especially strong, though some would argue that strength does have some role to play. There are many examples of people who can shoot very fast (and with pinpoint accuracy). Jerry Miculeck is the fastest shooter in the world, and he's, like, 70 years old or so. Jesse Abate is "just a girl" and shes' incredibly fast. Instructor Zero is another great example. Larry Vickers (who did a video called "Why I'm Fat" LOL!). All these people are top notch shooters who can shoot fast and straight even with "recoil."
So, for what it's worth, I'd rule that recoil may be a hindrance to beginners, but to experienced shooters, it's really a non-issue. Therefore, to portray it in D6, I might try something like this:
Each weapon has a "recoil factor." Whenever an attack roll is lower than the recoil factor, the shooter has a malfunction or drops the gun or cannot shoot anymore this round (or whatever, GM's call).
A typical blaster pistol might have a recoil factor of 8, while a "super heavy" blaster pistol (like, the equivalent of a Desert Eagle or S&W500) might have a recoil factor of 20 (watch some vids of the S&W500... it's... on a whole different level).
Heavy caliber rifles might have a recoil factor of 12, but if fired off-shoulder, then the recoil factor increases by 5 or 10 (this would be a great way for all the "carbine" people who think that a carbine can be fired just like a pistol, to understand the massive difference between the two). Light caliber rifles (such as a Ruger 10-22) would have a recoil factor of 1 or 2.
Anyway, there's my take, FWIW. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| Pel wrote: | While they don't mention it by name, I'm fairly certain that's what they had in mind with the Exotac Predator you listed. Other, smaller caliber models with greater range have entered service since then but to my knowledge there's nothing larger than the Barrett.
It just took one or two WEG designers 7 years ('90-'97) to work in a truly massive blaster rifle after watching Navy SEALs. |
LOL!! Navy SEALs! Charlie Sheen FTW!
I don't know about that max range of 350 meters... that's pretty measly for a large "caliber" gun. I know that the .50 BMG is lethal out to a couple of miles, and for quite a long time, Carlos Hathcock held the distance record for longest ranged kill (albeit with an M2, not an M82, but same ammo) at over a mile and a half. A Canadian sniper beat that distance record in 2004 with the M82, but that record was again beaten (in 2012, IIRC) by a .338 Lapua. Anyway, I digress...  |
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Pel
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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Very true. Maybe the blaster bolt loses cohesion after 350m? Of course this is the same bunch who, in the very next entry of Fantastic Tech, listed a Sniper Blaster Rifle with a max range of 250m. But, that's why we have house rules!
Oh, and I like your recoil rule also. Makes a lot of sense.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2015 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: |
I don't know about that max range of 350 meters... that's pretty measly for a large "caliber" gun. I know that the .50 BMG is lethal out to a couple of miles, and for quite a long time, Carlos Hathcock held the distance record for longest ranged kill (albeit with an M2, not an M82, but same ammo) at over a mile and a half. A Canadian sniper beat that distance record in 2004 with the M82, but that record was again beaten (in 2012, IIRC) by a .338 Lapua. Anyway, I digress... |
Well if you look in the Complete weapons guide, we have:
Dresselian Projectile Rifle, Long range max out to 200 meters
Czerka Adventurer, 300 meters (same as most all blaster rifles)
Inconnu Kisteer 1284 Sniper Rifle, 420 meters
Heck, even the Wookie long rifle only has a 120 meter range..
Compare that to real life, even a .22 air rifle has what, 240 or so meters of range>??
When i wrote out my revised firearms, i put "Hunting rifles' as also being at 300 meters, keeping them comparable to blaster rifles..
BUT i had 2 grades of rifles for beyond that..
The "Long tom", based on the Weatherby 500, has a range of 20-500/1km/2m
while the "God gun" (what i called the Barret .50 sniper rifle) i put down as
Range: 50-750/1.5km/2.25km
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Naaman
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, those are pretty good. Although in real life "standard" rifles are good at about twice the distance that WEG has given. .308 for example, is good for about 600m before it starts to lose effectiveness. .300 win-mag is good beyond 1000m. |
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D+1
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Joined: 10 May 2015
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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Am reminded of a behind-the-scenes clip from the Empire Strikes Back shoot (in Norway?). One of the crew was handing out weapons to the military extras that would be in the shot and explaining that the larger, heavier weapon he handed one of them should be portrayed as having heavier recoil so they needed to act/react appropriately to make things looked right.
I think realism is FAR less relevant than how it LOOKS - either on film or simply in the minds eye as you play. THAT'S the Star Wars way.  |
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Pel
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| Posted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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If you haven't been properly greeted yet, then Welcome to the Pit, D+1!
I agree with the substance of your post somewhat. If I have a nearly 6 ft. rifle shooting a massive 650-800 grain bullet at 13-14k ft/sec, I expect it to reach out and obliterate pretty much anything within a mile. But that may be the whiskey and Navy SEALs flashbacks talking... 
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Aug 18, 2015 1:31 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | | Yeah, those are pretty good. Although in real life "standard" rifles are good at about twice the distance that WEG has given. .308 for example, is good for about 600m before it starts to lose effectiveness. .300 win-mag is good beyond 1000m. |
IMO Star wars suffers from the same sort of "Range lowering" most other games do.. Just look at Battletech for instance. Most Balistic weapons such as Auto cannons have a max range of what, 18 hexes (which equates to 210 meters)?? But yet, even most WW2 artillery went out to 400+ meters with regularity.
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Pel
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| Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Auto cannons have a max range of what, 18 hexes (which equates to 210 meters)?? |
540m actually (30m per hex), but yeah, those guns should work well past half a kilometer.
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2015 1:20 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | | Yeah, those are pretty good. Although in real life "standard" rifles are good at about twice the distance that WEG has given. .308 for example, is good for about 600m before it starts to lose effectiveness. .300 win-mag is good beyond 1000m. |
IMO Star wars suffers from the same sort of "Range lowering" most other games do.. Just look at Battletech for instance. Most Balistic weapons such as Auto cannons have a max range of what, 18 hexes (which equates to 210 meters)?? But yet, even most WW2 artillery went out to 400+ meters with regularity. |
Yeah... well there are really only two stats I've ever bothered with from weapons: ammo capacity and damage...and I've given up on ammo capacity, too.
Its one of the reasons I scrapped the whole weapons system in D6 and just use my own. I just design the weapon I want, GM sets a price and makes adjustments as he sees fit and we roll with it. |
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