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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Force-Charged Strike - You'd get a similar effect from rolling Enhance Attribute and preparing for a round...
Electronic Sense, Radar Sense and Sense Surroundings - These could conceivably be bundled with Life Detection as the power Force Sight (see the Miralukans). I would prefer a broader description and simply call it Awareness, which allows the Jedi to be aware of details of his surroundings even if he can't sense them with his physical senses.
Time Sense - I'd fold this in with Direction Orientation from the first list as a kind of spatial awareness power, in that the character always knows where and when he is.
Truth Sense - I'd fold this in with Receptive Telepathy and make it a basic level sensation, that a Jedi can always tell when someone is lying.
| Quote: | | I'd also combined Perceptive trance & Cognitive trance |
Fold Calculate in with them, too, while you're at it...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | So the fact that he is using TK to parry an object flying right at him means it's not a reaction skill?
With all the errors we find and the house rules we make to correct them, why is there such resistance to the thought that WEG might've gotten the Force wrong too? The lengths to which some people go to defend that outdated mess actually makes my head hurt sometimes. |
Being TK moves things at a set speed
"Object may be moved at 10 meters per round; add +5 per
additional 10 meters per round. The target must be in sight
of the Jedi"
It is reasonable to see that the throwing of that senate seat 'hover unit' took more than 1 round to get from palpaltine to yoda, which then gave yoda a chance to oppose palp's TK with his own.
As to allowing jedi to ab/dis kinetic energy, i disagree, as they already get more chances than "Norms" to not take damage (danger sense to avoid it in the first place, force enhanced dodge or lightsaber parry, ab/dis to soak it up, force enhanced str). Giving them yet another 'combat boost' by allowing them to ab/dis any kinetic attacks would just make them almost impervious to being damaged.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | Being TK moves things at a set speed
"Object may be moved at 10 meters per round; add +5 per
additional 10 meters per round. The target must be in sight
of the Jedi" |
First off, the quote does not support your point; a set speed would be unchangeable, yet the rule allows the user to increase the speed by increasing the difficulty.
Secondly, your point does nothing to support your argument. Of far greater relevance is the fact that TK includes the ability to vary the speed for simple movement, but neglects to include the possibility of increasing damage by increasing speed, which should be an intuitive inclusion. The fact that it wasn't included is yet another indicator that the WEG Force rules are fraught with errors, and should be reconsidered both in their entirety and in all particulars instead of being taken as proven, immutable fact. AFAIAC, arguing in defense of the RAW in this instance is the result not of an objective consideration of the evidence provided by canon sources, but a near-obsessive desire to keep Jedi " dumbed down" in the name of "game balance" at the expense of a realistic representation of the SWU.
IMO, any sentence that includes the phrase "The RAW says..." should be the beginning of a discussion, never the end of it. To me, no argument is valid if it is basely solely on the foundation of "WEG said so." This is a case in point. The WEG Force rules were of debatable quality even before the prequels, and are hopelessly outdated in the modern EU.
| Quote: | | As to allowing jedi to ab/dis kinetic energy, i disagree, as they already get more chances than "Norms" to not take damage (danger sense to avoid it in the first place, force enhanced dodge or lightsaber parry, ab/dis to soak it up, force enhanced str). Giving them yet another 'combat boost' by allowing them to ab/dis any kinetic attacks would just make them almost impervious to being damaged. |
And this is another point of disagreement; Jedi are not and never will be "norms" and trying to force them down to that level takes away from that particular feel of the universe that defines Star Wars. As lurker said, Jedi should be limited by restrictions on their behavior, not their power, such that a Jedi may have the power to do many things, but must limit himself to the right thing.
And you make it sound like allowing a Jedi to use Absorb/Dissipate on kinetic energy will suddenly grant every Padawan with 1D in Control to ignore heavy machine gun fire at Point Blank range. The difficulty levels for Absorb Dissipate are very high with regards to combat damage, and even skilled characters attempting this trick might end up having to spend CP to make it happen.
In the end, I've come to the conclusion that not even the most logical argument in favor of revising WEG's version of Jedi and the Force will have an effect when the other person's primary goal is keeping the Jedi locked down so that the guy playing the bounty hunter doesn't get jealous. As such, you play in your world and I will play in mine.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2014 12:28 am Post subject: |
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Fare enough. You seem to want to power up jedi even more than they are, i don't. Never the twain shall meet.
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lurker
Commander
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
Posts: 423
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, I didn't have cadets that melted down this week, but .... there were HUGE issues from command and leadership (it amazes me that 'adults' hired to work with and improve the at risk cadets here at times act as bad or worse than the cadets ...)
With that I again am further behind on this than I'd hoped to be. But I am still working on it as I have time and mental energy (apparently, hearing an old crusty self-centered wind bags completely illogical arguments and not letting my head explode, tell him to curl up and retire, or invite him to come with me and visit a friend's pig farm takes a lot of mental energy!) Soooooo
Thus far I/we are looking at dropping:
Projected Fighting
Force Shot
Force Light
Balistikenesis
Pyrokinesis - No linkable description found. Source?
Phase
Cloak
Detonate
Masquerade
Rend
Technometry
Reshape Material
Resonate Material
Direction Orientation
Direction Sense
Electronic Sense
Radar Sense
Sense Spirit
Sense Surroundings
Time Sense
Truth Sense
Perceptive Trance
Cognitive Trance
Calculate
Force Charged Strike
Some of the above being combined into:
Awareness - Force enhanced ability to be aware of your surroundings and not limited to you normal senses etc.
Spatial awareness - Force enhanced ability to be hyper aware of you place in time and space.
Also Receptive telepathy gives the truth sense so no need to have a specific truth power. (I'd caution this is 'knowingly lying ... an unknown lie wouldn't pop hot on this)
I would further add:
Force flight
Maximize Force
Split Force
Warp Material
Enhanced Reflexes (Enhance Attribute should cover this)
Enlighten
Fold space
Precipitate
Sense Weight
Ok, now, do the following powers fit?
regenerate ... I know there are bacta tanks etc so there are medical tools that can heal to the point of this power, but does a Jedi having this power fit the feel of SW?
up the walls
Electronic communications
Empowered Lightbo Combat
Eyes of the Eagle
Force Archery
Fertilize
Force Transduction
Sever
Storytelling
Thermo Genesis
UrTek-Ná
If it is a thumbs up from you all, I won't argue it, I'm just doing a double check on the setting/feeling of the power.
Ok, that about covers it for now (and my cadets are coming back from break sooo)
Oh CRM, thanks for linking all of the powers in the previous posts!
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"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain
Forgive all spelling errors. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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Regenerate> Is that an enhanced version of accellerate healing?
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lurker
Commander
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
Posts: 423
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Regenerate> Is that an enhanced version of accellerate healing? |
Yes, plus the ability to regrow damaged appendages/tissue (even a damaged brain!)
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Forgive all spelling errors. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | Regenerate> Is that an enhanced version of accellerate healing? |
Yes, plus the ability to regrow damaged appendages/tissue (even a damaged brain!) |
Something more in line with the EU would be Healing Trance, which is featured in Timothy Zahn's Hand of Thrawn duology. I haven't worked up a rule for it, but if I did, it would feature healing rates similar to bacta, but the character would be required to enter the equivalent of a hibernation trance and be unable to perform any other actions while healing.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri May 16, 2014 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Projected Fighting - This one does actually occur in the EU. Are you planning on folding it in with TK or something?
Up The Walls, Maximize Force & Split Force - These are actually conversions of WOTC Feats. Personally, I'd like to see the Feats converted into an expanded difficulty modifier chart, allowing you to split, expand, maximize, etc, your Force powers at the cost of increased difficulty.
Sense Weight - This might be another one to fold into Awareness...
Electronic Communications - Maybe combined with the Telepathy powers, just at much higher difficulty...
Empowered Lightbo Combat, Enhanced Reflexes, Empowered Lightbow Combat, Force Archery & UrTek-Na' - At this point, I'm considering dropping all the Weapon Combat powers and just going with an expanded version of Combat Sense, with the only differences from the RAW version of Combat Sense is that Combat Sense is required to deflect blaster bolts, and the flat 2D bonus is now an open-ended scale where the Jedi receives a bonus of +1 pip to his pertient skills by every 3 points by which he beat the base difficulty...
Eyes of the Eagle - This power is actually more difficult and less useful than the RAW power Merge Senses. The only reason I can see for Eyes of the Eagle even being created is if it was made up before WEG came out with Merge Senses.
Force Transduction - I don't have a problem with this one. If a Jedi can absorb and dissipate the energy from a blaster bolt, then the reverse (using the Force to generate energy) should also be feasible.
Sever - This one did actually occur in the EU, but I would require it have a Control component as well.
Warp Materials, Precipitate & Thermo Genesis - All three of these are different variations on being able to manipulate matter at a molecular or atomic level, which there is precedent for in the EU (Luke rebuilding Vader's fortress on Coruscant, the Solo kids using the Force to identify and attempt to repair damaged components when trying to build a droid, etc). However, I do think that the ability to do this should be an extremely high-level CSA power...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Warp Materials, Precipitate & Thermo Genesis - All three of these are different variations on being able to manipulate matter at a molecular or atomic level, which there is precedent for in the EU (Luke rebuilding Vader's fortress on Coruscant, the Solo kids using the Force to identify and attempt to repair damaged components when trying to build a droid, etc). However, I do think that the ability to do this should be an extremely high-level CSA power... |
So...I realize that the Solo kids are 'above-par,' but are we basically saying they were SO above-par at this point that they had enough training and skill to be able to successfully use a high-level CSA power? |
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Jedi Skyler
Moff
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 3:11 am Post subject: |
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As for the grenade dispute...
...A grenade, with the pin simply pulled and the device thrown, will have a delay before it detonates.
However, if the thrower 'cooks' the grenade, meaning that they pull the pin, count off a few seconds, THEN throws the grenade...when (and/or if) the grenade hits the ground, it will detonate within a second or so of landing.
The bottom line is that the Jedi can, and does, detect INTENT. Danger Sense goes off when there is a POSSIBILITY of danger...not when a grenade has been cooked and thrown at the Jedi. If that's going to happen, the Jedi (provided Danger Sense has been activated) should already have sensed that an attack is coming, so there should be the possibility that he can deflect it (via TK or whatever means). Danger Sense, as with whatever the Jedi intends to do, but especially with the Force, comes down to INTENT. They'll sense ill will towards themselves or their party. They'll suffer DSPs if their own intent is less than pure. 'Nuff said. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat May 17, 2014 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Jedi Skyler wrote: | | So...I realize that the Solo kids are 'above-par,' but are we basically saying they were SO above-par at this point that they had enough training and skill to be able to successfully use a high-level CSA power? |
In the sequence I'm referencing, from the first book of the Corellian trilogy, the Solo kids were trying to put together a robot. Anakin was able to diagnose a specific component as defective just by holding it in his hand, and was also able to partially repair it (although it still failed when they tried to power the droid up). Based on this, my presumption is that it is possible to sense the nature of matter at a molecular level as well as being able to alter it, but it requires more knowledge and ability than the Solo kids had at that point.
Luke, however, was able to use TK to completely rebuild a building that had been destroyed by a B-Wing's laser cannon. As such, I would say that Anakin tried to do something similar, altering the shape of the internal component, but he lacked the power and training to pull it off.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun May 18, 2014 1:27 am Post subject: |
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| Jedi Skyler wrote: |
The bottom line is that the Jedi can, and does, detect INTENT. Danger Sense goes off when there is a POSSIBILITY of danger...not when a grenade has been cooked and thrown at the Jedi. If that's going to happen, the Jedi (provided Danger Sense has been activated) should already have sensed that an attack is coming, so there should be the possibility that he can deflect it (via TK or whatever means). Danger Sense, as with whatever the Jedi intends to do, but especially with the Force, comes down to INTENT. They'll sense ill will towards themselves or their party. They'll suffer DSPs if their own intent is less than pure. 'Nuff said. |
Actually, if the jedi has danger sense up and running, he should be able to use TK on the hand to prevent the grenade thrower from even pulling the pin to cook it. Or if he cares not about the DSP, tk it IN his hand so he can't toss it.
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