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jmanski
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 Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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Because absorption of kinetic energy is more difficult than absorption of heat energy.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
| Quote: | Stopping a bullet, would mean absorbing all of it's kinetic energy in a fraction of a second (since it does no good to stop it after it's hit you), and would be much more difficult.
So it might be possible in the SWU, but just not practical enough for Jedi to try and pull off. |
Again, I don't see why. Since blasters in general deliver higher damage than firearms, and damage is a representation of energy delivered, it should actually be more difficult to absorb the thermal / electrical energy from a blaster shot than the kinetic energy from a bullet. |
I can see two reason why:
1) Dealing with solid objects means working in much larger chunks, than with thermal energy (molecular scale) or electrical energy (atomic scale). This is like trying to move 1 ton. Doing it all at once is pretty much impossible for a human being without some sort of machinery. On the other hand, moving it in 20 pound crates is possible but slower. And doing it in 1 ounce containers is very easy, but impractical. So while a 9x19mm bullet and a hold out blaster might both fire shots with 500J of energy, the bullet requires the Jedi to stop a 8g chunk of lead as one piece, as opposed to a stream of subatomic particles.
2) Time constraints. When you deal with thermal or electrical energy the energy tends to affect a fairly large area, and you can reduce it's effectiveness by absorbing the energy slowly, and even by spreading the energy out so it affects a larger area, making it less damaging.
An analogue for this is when you try to push your finger through a sheet of paper as opposed to a pin. Same amount of energy - just spread out over a larger impact area, so less energy per unit of area.
But with a bullet you can't spread out the impact area (not without using a lot of TK to "pancake" the bullet, and that seems to take a few seconds more than the time it take for the bullet to hit), so the Jeid would have to absorb all the energy more much quickly. He can't take a second or two to stop and dissipate it, since it would hit by then.
Ironically, where a Jedi might be able to pull this off is with big cannon shells. Something like a shell from a 16" gun could take over a minute to reach it's target, thus giving the Jedi a lot more time to use absorb/dissipate or even TK to stop it. But then the Jedi would also have to bleed off millions of Joules of force each second -so it wouldn't be easy.
But that's just a scientific/technical view of the process. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | Because absorption of kinetic energy is more difficult than absorption of heat energy. |
Source?
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I can see two reason why |
Again, the problem I have here is that any description of a blaster bolt is purely theoretical, as we have no idea what they consist of, their actual diameter, energy delivered, etc. So any attempt at a scientific explanation why something can't happen is actually not scientific at all (i.e. based on theories and opinions rather than proven fact). On top of that, you're arguing difficulties and impossibilities about a fictional energy field (the Force) about which we have no evidence apart from what the films give us.
The position I have recently reached on the matter is that, while I am more than willing to mine reality for gaming ideas, I don't feel the need to be bound by its restrictions in a fictional universe.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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DougRed4
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Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | So why would a jedi ever bother waisting time on his STR attribute. Just bump his ab/dis up like crazy and he becomes immune to any attack form. |
First off, there's a number of reasons for "wasting time" on a STR attribute. For one, there's the fact that the Jedi might not know about the attack. Secondly, they might not be able to pull off Absorb/Dissipate. Thirdly, whereas the STR roll is automatic (and doesn't count towards MAPs), pulling off A/D requires a MAP, and thus becomes more difficult to do. Also, it's not really a "waste" because STR is used towards other things (like skills), and serves to protect one in other ways (serving somewhat as a form of 'Hit Points' that might be used in situations where A/D can't or won't do so).
Still, that said, I'm not that sure I'd include phyical/kinetic energy like HTH or Melee. I've seen games before that differentiate between energy types like this, and I'd probably lean towards allowing this to work toward traditional 'energy' (like lasers, which typically are some form of light), but not towards kinetic.
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jmanski
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Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | jmanski wrote: | | Because absorption of kinetic energy is more difficult than absorption of heat energy. |
Source? |
Common sense? I can pick up a 1,000 degree metal bar with a pair of gloves and not feel a thing, but I need a Kevlar vest to reduce a fairly weak 9mm round to only a major bruise.
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aegisflashfire
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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false comparison. You're not absorbing the heat of that bar of metal at all. In fact, insulation prevents heat transfer. On the other hand, stopping the bullet means you're absolutely absorbing its KE.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | Again, the problem I have here is that any description of a blaster bolt is purely theoretical, as we have no idea what they consist of, their actual diameter, energy delivered, etc. So any attempt at a scientific explanation why something can't happen is actually not scientific at all (i.e. based on theories and opinions rather than proven fact). On top of that, you're arguing difficulties and impossibilities about a fictional energy field (the Force) about which we have no evidence apart from what the films give us.
The position I have recently reached on the matter is that, while I am more than willing to mine reality for gaming ideas, I don't feel the need to be bound by its restrictions in a fictional universe. |
Yup. My posts have been attempts to explain how or why it could work that way, not attempts to prove that it does work that way.
The science/physics I used are correct, but that only goes so far in a fictional setting. Heck, for all we know, there might be an actual scientific reason for sound in space! |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| aegisflashfire wrote: | | false comparison. You're not absorbing the heat of that bar of metal at all. In fact, insulation prevents heat transfer. On the other hand, stopping the bullet means you're absolutely absorbing its KE. |
Good post. I was going to say that. Although stopping the bullet usually also means spreading out the area of impact to reduce the energy and force per unit of area.
But I think jmanski's conclusion is correct. If we look at something like a water cooled machine gun or even an automobile, it's easier to draw off the excess heat than it is to stop the moving object. Most cars put out about twice the heat energy that they put out in kinetic energy, yet the radiator system isn't twice the mass of the break system, is it? |
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jmanski
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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That's what I was getting at and worded it not so good. 
Heat is easy to disperse while kinetic energy is difficult to disperse effectively.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | That's what I was getting at and worded it not so good.
Heat is easy to disperse while kinetic energy is difficult to disperse effectively. |
That's because the laws of thermodynamics are working to disperse the heat, while inertia is working to conserve the kinetic energy. |
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Dromdarr_Alark
Commander
Joined: 07 Apr 2013
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Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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SCIENCE!!!
My brain hurts. Will this scientific logic cause us to ultimately get rid of the duality of energy and physical damage? I can see that happening if we keep going with this.
What we have already established:
1. Heat energy is easier to protect against than (human-scale) kinetic energy (this means that armor should have more protection against energy damage, which is not consistent with the stats)
2. Physical damage is caused by kinetic energy, which is a type of energy, and thus should be resisted by Absorb/dissipate energy. (Would energy resistance in armor not have to apply to kinetic energy also, then?)
3. Kinetic energy is the same as heat energy, since heat energy is kinetic energy on a molecular scale.
I do, on the other hand, agree with atgxtg when he talks about the impracticality of stopping a bullet by absorbing its energy.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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We haven't proven anything, as far as Star Wars goes. We're just applying known science and logical thinking to try and guess what is happening in Star Wars.
For all we know the reasons why you can do one and not the other in Star Wars is because the midi-clorians are picky. 
Or maybe we can do both, but since we haven't seen many slugthrowers used against Jedi, we just haven;t seen that power yet. |
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Dromdarr_Alark
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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I'm just thinking about where this logic is taking us.
But I'm just gonna say, "I don't know, therefore the FORCE!"
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | We haven't proven anything, as far as Star Wars goes. We're just applying known science and logical thinking to try and guess what is happening in Star Wars.
For all we know the reasons why you can do one and not the other in Star Wars is because the midi-clorians are picky.
Or maybe we can do both, but since we haven't seen many slugthrowers used against Jedi, we just haven;t seen that power yet. |
Heck, other than that Sand person shooting a slug thrower at the pod racers, we don't see any sluggers used! Yet alone how a Jedi would fair against one.
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