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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | It all depends on how the GM handles the mechanics of grenades. If they explode the next round there's a chance, but if its the same round I don't think the Jedi should be able to do it. |
Why? Can't a Jedi detect a grenade attack and react to it like other attacks?
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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| The Brain wrote: |
Yes because jedi need more advantages. Seriously this is a pet peeve of mine I like to call force bloat. We get a constant stream of new force powers that can do whatever. All we need is a choreographed musical number of jedi singing "Anything you can do I can do better!" |
Agreed. To me it was NOT done as an oversite, but as a way to try and stave off their 'uberness'.
| jmanski wrote: | | It all depends on how the GM handles the mechanics of grenades. If they explode the next round there's a chance, but if its the same round I don't think the Jedi should be able to do it. |
And since most every grenade attack in games i have seen or been DM for have exploded as soon as they hit, there has not been that delay to worry about.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | And since most every grenade attack in games i have seen or been DM for have exploded as soon as they hit, there has not been that delay to worry about. |
Per the RAW (page 92), grenades have different detonators depending on type (although I would think a grenade in a sci-fi setting could be set to either variable time or contact detonation). If a grenade is contact detonated, it goes off when it hits; if it is set for less than five seconds, it goes off at the end of the round in which it was thrown (and if I had a house rule for grenades with a five-second timer, it would be that they go off at the beginning of the following round).
I've already stated my objections to this technicality, so I'm not going into it again, except to say that it doesn't fit what Jedi are capable of in the films, and allowing a secondary source (the games) to shape the primary source (the films) with regards to what constitutes reality in the SWU is a mistake, especially when it is done in such transparently ham-handed and arbitrary manner.
Speaking for myself, I would rather play in a gaming universe that duplicates the SWU as closely as possible, not one that makes grenades invisible to the Force just so that Jedi aren't too powerful.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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lurker
Commander
Joined: 24 Oct 2012
Posts: 423
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
The problem I have with the current Force Power system is that it breaks everything down into a thousand different powers that all do one specific thing. I would rather see Powers defined as broadly as possible, then allow Abilities (essentially, Specializations of that Power) to be used to perform specific acts.
For instance, since TK allows characters to manipulate objects at a distance (subject to size and weight limitations, as well as Line-Of-Sight), but does not explicitly mention things like flipping switches, pressing buttons or pulling levers, I would allow a character to, in effect, invent Abilities on the spot by paying a minimal CP cost (since the PC already knows TK and is just using it in a way they haven't before). This way, any TK-related power would be a sub-power under TK, so long as it didn't exceed the size/weight requirements, didn't require the use of Sense or Control, and didn't leave the character's line of sight.
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I'm with you 100% on that! I was amazed when I dug into the force powers and saw how many there were and how specific they were ... TO me the powers should be fairly generic, and it be up to a clever player on exactly how he uses the powers.
That said
| crmcneill wrote: |
Exactly. WEG gave Jedi the ability to detect attacks before they happen and the ability to deflect objects/energy coming at them at high speed and the ability to move objects with their minds. Ergo, they should be able to telekinetically deflect grenades,
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I'm with Crm on this one ... Someone that can sense an attack, deflect blaster bolts (or absorb them) and grab things with their mind and fling them at their will, Why can't he see/feel/sense the grenade being tossed, and react to it ...
In real life, I have seen a grenade thrown in my general area and been able to yell a warning -cursing- blow my breath out (so it didn't pop my lungs) get rolled back into a ditch behind a tree before it blew (luckily it bounced left away from us instead of making a straight bounce closer to us).
If I can do that, why not a Jedi ??? Then on top of that, why can he see it in mid air and reach out with a bit of TK and swat it away ...
Now it is up to the player to think about that in the heat of the moment - the GM needs to ramp up the stress then and there to make it realistic and maybe panic the player out of thinking that through ...
As for
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The Brain wrote:
Yes because jedi need more advantages. Seriously this is a pet peeve of mine I like to call force bloat. We get a constant stream of new force powers that can do whatever. All we need is a choreographed musical number of jedi singing "Anything you can do I can do better!"
Agreed. To me it was NOT done as an oversite, but as a way to try and stave off their 'uberness'.
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I admit I'm not an expert, but ... to me Jedi (at least experienced ones) should be 'uber'. They should - especially dark siders - cause fear in someone coming up and fighting toe to toe with them ... There shouldn't be 'balance' in mechanic sense. Their balance comes from Jedi HAVE to be GOOD GUYS. No ifs ands or buts.
I was bored the other night and popped in Episode 1, what did the guys fighting to get away from the fighter hanger heading toward the palace do when the door slid open and there stood Darth Maul? ... Hay we can overwhelm him, toss some grenades and be done with it ... Nope, there was an 'Oh poop' pause, and then Qui Gen & Obi said we will handle this ... then the troops ran the other way. If the Sith were to be balanced then the troops would have been able to handle one lone Sith ...
Blink, blink, now I understand fully the 'Can or worms' warning ....
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| lurker wrote: | | If I can do that, why not a Jedi ??? Then on top of that, why can he see it in mid air and reach out with a bit of TK and swat it away ... |
I have found that there is a kind of mental block that affects some people in the SW D6 community, and that is an instinctive devotion to the SWU as defined by WEG. Any contradiction between the RAW and the films will be retconned to make the films comply with the RAW, and any attempt to point out how backwards that is is met with denials, accusations of overpowering Jedi, and insistence that they should be balanced out with other characters, regardless of film evidence to the contrary. I once hurt a few feelings around here by applying the phrase "drinking the WEG Kool-Aid" to such thinkers; even had it as my signature for a bit. Bottom line, redefining the roleplaying game to conform to the films requires thinking outside a box that some people just aren't prepared to step outside of...
| Quote: | | Their balance comes from Jedi HAVE to be GOOD GUYS. No ifs ands or buts. |
Exactly. There are other complications as well, especially in the classic era, where Jedi are the galaxy's most wanted criminals. Drifting around somewhere on this forum is a rule for Disturbances in the Force, which basically means that if a Jedi rolls too high on his Force skills, he creates a disturbance in the Force which sparks an Imperial manhunt, with elite anti-Jedi stormtrooper teams, Inquisitors and Dark Jedi, and ultimately Darth Vader. The challenge for Jedi characters is how to adhere to their morals without being too obvious about it.
I even considered alternate Character Point awards for Jedi rewarding them for minimizing Force use, in the sense that overuse of the Force was actually abuse of the Force, and a true Jedi only uses the Force when absolutely necessary.
There are a lot of ideas out there that don't involve arbitrary and nonsensical limitations on Jedi power, and those are just two...
| Quote: | | Blink, blink, now I understand fully the 'Can or worms' warning .... |
Oh, you have no idea. Wade through a 10-page argument over whether or not Jedi should be allowed to use Force Choke and you will start to get a feel for it...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:34 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
Speaking for myself, I would rather play in a gaming universe that duplicates the SWU as closely as possible, not one that makes grenades invisible to the Force just so that Jedi aren't too powerful. |
If we tried matching the films, then most people are not going to be anywhere close to matching up to jedi though.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 12:44 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | If we tried matching the films, then most people are not going to be anywhere close to matching up to jedi though. |
O_o
So since matching the films would be too hard, we should all just give up and agree to play in a universe that is sort of like Star Wars, except watered down to make it comply with generic gaming convention?
I get that only the most experienced Jedi PCs will ever get close to the level of what we see Luke and Anakin and the other big names do in the films, but that just means we need to set the Difficulty levels high, not out-and-out ban something just because WEG issued a decree in the name of the almighty Balance...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4866
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | The Brain wrote: |
Yes because jedi need more advantages. Seriously this is a pet peeve of mine I like to call force bloat. We get a constant stream of new force powers that can do whatever. All we need is a choreographed musical number of jedi singing "Anything you can do I can do better!" |
Agreed. To me it was NOT done as an oversite, but as a way to try and stave off their 'uberness'.
| jmanski wrote: | | It all depends on how the GM handles the mechanics of grenades. If they explode the next round there's a chance, but if its the same round I don't think the Jedi should be able to do it. |
And since most every grenade attack in games i have seen or been DM for have exploded as soon as they hit, there has not been that delay to worry about. |
Yeah, I think I'm with you guys on this one. Being the guy who even converted the grenade deflect power, I can see where there are issues in a game where it can be damaging to balance -- something that the RAW struggles with as it is. Call it drinking the Kool Aide, or ham fisted... sometimes ham tastes good and you need something to wash it down with.
Seriously, though, I don't think that any of the game systems yet have really found a way to get a great balance of Jedi in the game. It's something that we all work through differently in our games, and we don't always all agree on how to do it. Sometimes we agree to disagree and wish each other well at our individual game tables.
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, I'm another "non Kool Aid drinker" here, as I think the films trump anything by WEG. 
So I've been agreeing with crmc on this one, in that I think a Jedi should be able to (easily) use TK to toss away a grenade, unless it's set to go off on contact.
I also agree with lurker on the easy fix for balancing Jedi (forcing them to be good), and I think it's worked well in our game. You just hold them to a strict moral code; they're much, much more restricted in the choices they can make. The Jedi are far more powerful than the rest of the party, when you look at the films.
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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| Posted: Mon May 05, 2014 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | FWIW, I'm another "non Kool Aid drinker" here, as I think the films trump anything by WEG.
So I've been agreeing with crmc on this one, in that I think a Jedi should be able to (easily) use TK to toss away a grenade, unless it's set to go off on contact.
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Do we see the Jedi pinging away incoming objects via TK in the films? I suppose there was that scene where Yoda stopped the rocks from falling on him in his encounter with Tyranus. I'm trying to remember if a defensive TK shows up when Sidious throws the senate at Yoda in ROTS.
Either way, the only sticky point for me is that it takes a non-reaction skill and lets a character use it as a reaction. In my first GMing experience, I had a player convince me that the way his character was trained, he would respond with {x skill} instinctively, and should be able to use it as a reaction, and I acquiesced. I soon found out how game breaking that turned out to be. Though I understand that situation may not be repeatable in all situations, it made a strong impression on my young GMing psyche.
That said, I probably would allow for a TK grenade deflect under the old TOTJ rule of "use a FP to use a Force skill in a way the rules don't really describe." To me, that would account for why a character is able to act out of their turn on a non-reactionary skill.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | I'm trying to remember if a defensive TK shows up when Sidious throws the senate at Yoda in ROTS. |
There is; Yoda uses TK to catch one of the booths and throw it back at Sidious. Incidentally, that means that either Jedi actually can use TK to attack with objects, or that Yoda picked up a DSP. Two if you count the Force Push back in Palpatine's office when the fight started.
| Quote: | | Either way, the only sticky point for me is that it takes a non-reaction skill and lets a character use it as a reaction. |
IMO, this highlights the main irreconcilable difference of opinion here. Specifically, what takes precedence in defining the nature and limitations of the Force? If it is the films, then TK not being a reaction skill should have been out the window the second Yoda used TK to parry Dooku's attacks in AOTC.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: |
I also agree with lurker on the easy fix for balancing Jedi (forcing them to be good), and I think it's worked well in our game. You just hold them to a strict moral code; they're much, much more restricted in the choices they can make. The Jedi are far more powerful than the rest of the party, when you look at the films. |
Is it a balance though? Look at all the DSP or not type threads around here, where many seem to feel that intent etc should determine if a DSP is given, thereby allowing their "Jedi PCS' to argue their way out of getting one..
| Quote: | | IMO, this highlights the main irreconcilable difference of opinion here. Specifically, what takes precedence in defining the nature and limitations of the Force? If it is the films, then TK not being a reaction skill should have been out the window the second Yoda used TK to parry Dooku's attacks in AOTC. |
That seemed more to me to be an opposed TK incident.[/quote]
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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So the fact that he is using TK to parry an object flying right at him means it's not a reaction skill?
With all the errors we find and the house rules we make to correct them, why is there such resistance to the thought that WEG might've gotten the Force wrong too? The lengths to which some people go to defend that outdated mess actually makes my head hurt sometimes.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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lurker
Commander
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| Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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I had, not 1, not 2 not 3, but 4 cadets have melt downs in my class today ... 3 in the class group that is (or was) the 'good group' and the other 'bad' class group was missing the 'bad cadet' but still had one cadet melt down ...
With that, unless something big changes over the next 2 days I won't be able to knock the force power tree out near as soon as I had hoped.
That said, the debate about grenade defense not withstanding, what other force powers would you all cull
In addition to the above mentioned powers, I'd add
Force charged strike
Electronic sense (again, this should be assumed as part of sense)
Radar sense " "
Sense spirit " "
Sense surroundings " "
Time sense " "
Truth sense " "
I'd also combined Perceptive trance & Cognitive trance
I haven't looked at the other lists yet so there may be more I'd add
Oh yeah, for some advice from you all, some of the powers have a list of way tooooo many prerequisites ... when I do the force powers tree, how should I handle those????
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