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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | I'm not in favor of adding another roll to the process. It bogs the game down. Especially once the players get multiple skills that can have an affinity bonus. |
I'm looking at it from a perspective of not only providing an affinity bonus, but also offering an incentive for characters to take Knowledge skills, which are otherwise something of a dump stat unless you get a GM who is willing to do some immersive roleplaying.
| Quote: | | Nor do I like MAPS here, since the affinity bonus isn't actually taking another action. Just because somebody knows something shouldn't penalize them. |
And if this were a straight affinity bonus, I would agree. However, the rule I'm proposing is not an automatic bonus based on skill level, but a chance to roll a Knowledge skill on the spot to see if you remember anything that is helpful in this situation. If you are trying to Con someone while wracking your brain trying to remember any information about the species or culture of the being you are trying to Con, that is a fair enough application of the MAP concept. I included the idea of allowing a reduced MAP for rolling multiple Knowledge skills because there will be circumstances where information about the subject in question will span across several different Knowledge skills, and the mind has the ability to recall random data when focusing on a specific subject.
The chance for failure represents the possibility that the character will remember something incorrectly or make some other form of mistake, which will then reduce the chance of success on the practical skill roll. A failure on a Language roll to enhance a Persuasion attempt could lead to the character using the incorrect word and offending the listener, rather than swaying them to his opinion. That is what the failure chance is supposed to represent.
| Quote: | | I hate the idea that CPs, etc. aren't allowed on the affinity roll. There's just no justification for it. |
My thinking here was more of prohibiting CP use on a failed roll, as the character wouldn't particularly know he had failed. CP boosting the initial skill roll would be acceptable if the character really felt he needed it...
| Quote: | | Oh, and assuming it did work this way, how much is the bonus? It needs to be good enough to warrent the difficulties and MAP, yet if it's too good it can end up having more effect than the primary skill. |
Right now I'm thinking +/-1 for every 3 points by which the roll succeeded or failed, but I haven't had a chance to playtest the results and see how it stacks up.
| Quote: | | I'd rather see something like a fixed bonus that doesn't require a roll. Maybe +1 per D in the related skill. Maybe you can spend a CP to get the bonus instead of rolling an extra die? |
Again, my idea isn't just to provide a synergy or affinity bonus, but to bring the Knowledge attribute more into play by requiring that the Knowledge skills be rolled to generate bonuses, not simply serving as a basis of generating a static bonus applied to other skills.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2014 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| cheshire wrote: | | Let's assume you do go with #4. Once you start talking about the use of Advanced skills, it begins a great CP usage. The question soon becomes whether it is even worthwhile to drop another 4 cps to move the advanced skill from 2D to 2D+1, rather than move the "cooperating skill" from 4D to 4D+1. |
However, mathematically speaking, the character will eventually reach the point where it becomes more cost effective to spend the CP to improve the Advanced skill (since it can be stacked with the prerequisite/s) rather than spending them on improving the prerequisite skills themselves.
I've always felt that advanced skill are an underutilized concept, and I'd like to see them used more.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
I'm looking at it from a perspective of not only providing an affinity bonus, but also offering an incentive for characters to take Knowledge skills, which are otherwise something of a dump stat unless you get a GM who is willing to do some immersive roleplaying. |
Ah. One thing that I saw and liked was the concept of a Declaration from Spirit of the Century.
In most RPGs knowledge skills work like this:
The player makes a skill roll. If he rolls well enough the GM tells him some information which said player supposedly passes onto the group. Useful? perhaps, but boring for the player (who did invest points into those skills the same as the guy who bought blaster and dodge, but not nearly as much fun).
The way the Declaration works is that the player makes up something, delcares it to be so, and then spends a fate point (kinda like a CP) and makes his skill roll. If he rolls well enough the statement is true. If not, then he didn't know as much as he thought.
The GM sets the difficulty for the declaration secretly, based on just what the player claimed, based partly on how believable the claim is, but mostly on how much it could add to the adventure.
It really makes all those academic skills useful, and is a great way to find a garbage chute to escape down when your pinned down in a firefight on the detention level.
| Quote: | | And if this were a straight affinity bonus, I would agree. However, the rule I'm proposing is not an automatic bonus based on skill level, but a chance to roll a Knowledge skill on the spot to see if you remember anything that is helpful in this situation. If you are trying to Con someone while wracking your brain trying to remember any information about the species or culture of the being you are trying to Con, that is a fair enough application of the MAP concept. I included the idea of allowing a reduced MAP for rolling multiple Knowledge skills because there will be circumstances where information about the subject in question will span across several different Knowledge skills, and the mind has the ability to recall random data when focusing on a specific subject. |
Maybe. I suppose it depends on how good the bonus would be. Obviously it had better be more than 1D! Probably better than 2D to make it worth the trouble.
Hmm, what you are proposing remdinds me of HEroQuest. In that RPG a character can get a synergy bonus from up to 3 related abilities. He has the choice between taking a fixed, automatic bonus, or making a skill roll for a variable bonus that could be much better (at the risk of no bonus at all).
| Quote: | | I hate the idea that CPs, etc. aren't allowed on the affinity roll. There's just no justification for it. |
My thinking here was more of prohibiting CP use on a failed roll, as the character wouldn't particularly know he had failed. CP boosting the initial skill roll would be acceptable if the character really felt he needed it... [/quote]
Okay. Might I suggest then that you just keep the difficulty of the affinity roll a secret? That way the player "wouldn't particularly know he had failed" either. So any CP spending could be perfectly legit- if the player thinks he needs to.
| Quote: |
Right now I'm thinking +/-1 for every 3 points by which the roll succeeded or failed, but I haven't had a chance to playtest the results and see how it stacks up. |
So the player would need to beat the difficulty by 9-12 just to to make up for the MAP? Ouch!
What if instead of a die roll modifier the affinity roll adjusted the difficulty? A good roll would lower the difficulty by 1 level (which is better than a MAP), or even more. A bad roll could up the difficulty.
| Quote: | | Again, my idea isn't just to provide a synergy or affinity bonus, but to bring the Knowledge attribute more into play by requiring that the Knowledge skills be rolled to generate bonuses, not simply serving as a basis of generating a static bonus applied to other skills. |
Okay. In that case I still like my idea of having the KNO roll shift the difficulty of the task rather than generating a bonus to the roll. Not only would it make the KNO skill useful, but it would reduce the math a little. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | The way the Declaration works is that the player makes up something, delcares it to be so, and then spends a fate point (kinda like a CP) and makes his skill roll. If he rolls well enough the statement is true. If not, then he didn't know as much as he thought. |
The two ideas aren't contradictory, and could be used side-by-side, depending on the situation. Of course, there is the potential for abuse of declaration by an unimaginative player character who simply imagines a garbage chute or secret passage every time he makes the roll.
| Quote: | | Might I suggest then that you just keep the difficulty of the affinity roll a secret? That way the player "wouldn't particularly know he had failed" either. So any CP spending could be perfectly legit- if the player thinks he needs to. |
If that's how you want to run it. GMs have been making secret dice rolls for a long time. It all depends on what kind of players you have, really.
| Quote: | | So the player would need to beat the difficulty by 9-12 just to to make up for the MAP? Ouch! |
My thinking is that using practical application skills already includes some aspects of general knowledge already, and only the really exceptional rolls would tip the balance in the character's favor.
| Quote: | | In that case I still like my idea of having the KNO roll shift the difficulty of the task rather than generating a bonus to the roll. Not only would it make the KNO skill useful, but it would reduce the math a little. |
Because this is a dice rolling game, and I'd rather see the dice for Knowledge skills get rolled, not simply used to generate a flat modifier. Plus, the dice adds an aspect of randomness, in that memory isn't always perfect, and no matter how good your memory is, there may come that moment when you remember something incorrectly. A flat increase or decrease in difficulty just doesn't represent that.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: |
The two ideas aren't contradictory, and could be used side-by-side, depending on the situation. |
Yup.
| crmcneill wrote: |
Of course, there is the potential for abuse of declaration by an unimaginative player character who simply imagines a garbage chute or secret passage every time he makes the roll. |
Nope. Since the GM sets the difficulty for the declaration (this is done after the player declared but before the roll), anything like that just fails.
You see the thing with declarations is that the player has to "sell" the idea to the GM. Finding a garbage chute with a monster, that's locked, and with collapsing walls is a much easier sell than just a garbage chute. The 5697th garbage chute is going to be a hard sell.
| Quote: | | So the player would need to beat the difficulty by 9-12 just to to make up for the MAP? Ouch! |
My thinking is that using practical application skills already includes some aspects of general knowledge already, and only the really exceptional rolls would tip the balance in the character's favor.
| Quote: | | In that case I still like my idea of having the KNO roll shift the difficulty of the task rather than generating a bonus to the roll. Not only would it make the KNO skill useful, but it would reduce the math a little. |
Because this is a dice rolling game, and I'd rather see the dice for Knowledge skills get rolled, not simply used to generate a flat modifier. [/quote]
They were. Did you read my post?
Quote: the KNO roll shift the difficulty.
So there is a roll.
| Quote: |
Plus, the dice adds an aspect of randomness, in that memory isn't always perfect, and no matter how good your memory is, there may come that moment when you remember something incorrectly. A flat increase or decrease in difficulty just doesn't represent that. |
Except I didn't say a flat increase or decrease. I said having the KNO roll shift the difficulty up or down, and it has the same aspect of randomness that rolling more dice does. Every more so, since you can get a penalty.
But if you stick with extra dice, then you need to make it worth the trouble for the player to make the roll. Assuming a moderate difficulty and +1 per 3 points, a character is going to need 8D just to break even. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like we need to take this synergy idea to a new thread.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Sounds like we need to take this synergy idea to a new thread. |
It may already have one; this isn't the first time I've mentioned it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Since the GM sets the difficulty for the declaration (this is done after the player declared but before the roll), anything like that just fails. |
That works. A friend of mine shared a GM experience, in that a character with an absurdly high Con made a mockery of the process by always Conning his subjects with some variation on "we're here to see the lizard people." The GM got tired of it and the next time the player made the lizard people Con, the PCs were introduced the group to a bunch of Trandoshan bounty hunters...
| Quote: | | Except I didn't say a flat increase or decrease. I said having the KNO roll shift the difficulty up or down, and it has the same aspect of randomness that rolling more dice does. Every more so, since you can get a penalty. |
So it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. If the result either way is a random increase in the character's chances of success, what's the point in changing it?
| Quote: | | But if you stick with extra dice, then you need to make it worth the trouble for the player to make the roll. Assuming a moderate difficulty and +1 per 3 points, a character is going to need 8D just to break even. |
Like I said, it's just a concept at this point. The roll doesn't have to be made in the same round, after all, just like with anything else. If the character has some advance notice of who or what he will be rolling against, he can make the Knowledge rolls in previous rounds building up to the attempt.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | That works. A friend of mine shared a GM experience, in that a character with an absurdly high Con made a mockery of the process by always Conning his subjects with some variation on "we're here to see the lizard people." The GM got tired of it and the next time the player made the lizard people Con, the PCs were introduced the group to a bunch of Trandoshan bounty hunters... |
LOL! Please tell me that the group had a price on their heads and the bounty hunters were after them!
| Quote: |
So it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. If the result either way is a random increase in the character's chances of success, what's the point in changing it? |
It's easier and faster to implement. You don't have to add up another modfier and them apply it to a second roll.
| Quote: | | But if you stick with extra dice, then you need to make it worth the trouble for the player to make the roll. Assuming a moderate difficulty and +1 per 3 points, a character is going to need 8D just to break even. |
Like I said, it's just a concept at this point. The roll doesn't have to be made in the same round, after all, just like with anything else. If the character has some advance notice of who or what he will be rolling against, he can make the Knowledge rolls in previous rounds building up to the attempt.[/quote]
Okay, but I still think the bonus has to be better to make it worthwhile for a PC to roll. I've seen a few RPGs do something like this and players opting not to roll since the chances of messing up were much better than the marginal benefits. Frankly, as a player, I wouldn't go near this unless I was getting at least 1D out of it, over and above the MAP. I wouldn't start looking for it unless it was worth 2D. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | LOL! Please tell me that the group had a price on their heads and the bounty hunters were after them! |
| Quote: | | It's easier and faster to implement. You don't have to add up another modfier and them apply it to a second roll. |
Good point. I'm still partial to converting to dice values as the roll will do a better job representing the potentially variable effectiveness of the knowledge boost, but the added simplicity is also desirable.
| Quote: | | Okay, but I still think the bonus has to be better to make it worthwhile for a PC to roll. I've seen a few RPGs do something like this and players opting not to roll since the chances of messing up were much better than the marginal benefits. Frankly, as a player, I wouldn't go near this unless I was getting at least 1D out of it, over and above the MAP. I wouldn't start looking for it unless it was worth 2D. |
The flipside is that I don't want to make the bonus scale up too much too fast. While I want to make Knowledge more playable as a practical application attribute, I don't want to make it too powerful.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Good point. I'm still partial to converting to dice values as the roll will do a better job representing the potentially variable effectiveness of the knowledge boost, but the added simplicity is also desirable. |
Evil idea. Instead of doing two seperate rolls, why not add the KNO skill dice to the other skill, but raise the difficulty (either by adding the KNO difficulty or just doubling the base difficulty)? The extra skill dice from KNO could be capped at equal to the reguar skill dice. That way to eliminate a roll, keep the variable effect of KNO skills, and keep them from being overpowering with the increased difficulty.
| Quote: |
The flipside is that I don't want to make the bonus scale up too much too fast. While I want to make Knowledge more playable as a practical application attribute, I don't want to make it too powerful. |
Well if, and I say if you went with a table you could space out the bonus dice or level reductions.
Keeping the bonus in whole dice would probably help too. So instead of +1 pip per 3 points you could give +1D per 10 points (or fraction therefof) |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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For that latter option. How's about synergy skill rolls (know skills prior to certain mech/tech or dex skills) go off a chart. You cannot roll more d in your know skill than the skill you are wanting it to synergy with has.
For each 5 or fraction there of your roll beats the TN by (not mapped), the synergy skill gains +1 to its roll.
Failing to meet the Diff # by 5 or less results in NO penalty or bonus, but if you fail it by more than 5, you gain a -1 penalty per grouping of 5.
Synergied skills cannot be used on specializations, ONLY on base skills.
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DougRed4
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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The more I've thought about it, the less I'm inclined to incorporate any kind of synergy bonus. I just feel it would slow the game down, and not allow it to race along at the right pace.
That said, I haven't completely abandoned the idea. I do try to utilize Knowledge skills, though.
I ran the idea of specializations (to Pickpocket) of Sleight of Hand, Prestidigitation, and Lockpicking past my group when we played two days ago, and they were good with that idea.
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Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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atgxtg
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Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | The more I've thought about it, the less I'm inclined to incorporate any kind of synergy bonus. I just feel it would slow the game down, and not allow it to race along at the right pace.
That said, I haven't completely abandoned the idea. I do try to utilize Knowledge skills, though. |
I feel the same way. While the concept is good, the idea of turning a task into two or three additional rolls kills it.
I'd like something quick that doesn't bog the game down. Perhaps something like using synergy to change the bonus given for spending a CP from 1D6 to a bonus based on the related skill? Say 1D per 3D in skill?
It wouldn't bog the game down, or require any additional rolls. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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The Sparks group has a flat synergy bonus on selective per skills based on your Body language (know) profession roll, or on many different skills based on your Scholar skill. There its a flat 1d bonus per 3d of the Body lang or scholar skill.
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