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jmanski
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 Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Yer killing me with the quotes... 
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DarthOmega
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| Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah it's just garkhal and I hashing things out to make sure they jive with the rules and have some balance to them. Give it a few more days and a revised version should be up.
I'll get to the comments later this evening btw.
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DarthOmega
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Joined: 27 Feb 2014
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Location: Backside of WA state
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | DO you wish to start that new thread or should i |
You go ahead (same with the ambidexterity and tracking one), you are better known here than I am. I will definitely put my input in though once it’s started.
| garhkal wrote: | | I can get behind that. OR perhaps its linked to specific races, like how some are MORE resistant to the force (mind control like the hutts), we could have a few who are 'weaker willed'.. |
That could work as well, but it would take a lot of work considering how many species there are in Star Wars, unless we kept it to a list of more popular species.
| garhkal wrote: | | Now we just need to figure out what a good "Passive" use penalty would be.. I am leaning to around pushing it up from moderate (13-15) to at least difficult (20). |
Seems about right.
| garhkal wrote: | | It still takes a full round action, i was more on about would having this trait lessen the roll someone would need to get? |
I wouldn’t see why it would since it just halves actual healing times.
| garhkal wrote: | | Still not liking it. I can see your backround (which is what i see this being) as showing what skills you can get, but not adding to them in the way you propose. |
Yeah I see your point, that’s stuff that should be reflected by the skills you choose to improve at character creation. What about the idea of fringer maybe getting a bonus to astrogation when in the outer rim, wild space, or unknown regions, and kind of a working knowledge of good hiding spots to lay low and avoid heat from the authorities? Maybe for each full D of Planetary Systems you know two or three different spots to lie low. The astrogation bonus would stack with Direction Sense if you had it.
And that’s all there is left. So probably after your next reply, I can modify and revise the advantages.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | Yer killing me with the quotes... |
At least we are quoting the specific person, rather than doing big blanket quote blocks without calling out whom we are quoteing.. 
| DarthOmega wrote: | You go ahead (same with the ambidexterity and tracking one), you are better known here than I am. I will definitely put my input in though once it’s started.
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Will do.
here is the one for off hand penalty
and the one for search/tracking
I made the latter one a poll.
| DarthOmega wrote: | That could work as well, but it would take a lot of work considering how many species there are in Star Wars, unless we kept it to a list of more popular species.
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Perhaps we could have a thread on which alien species others feel might be good candidates? Those making recommendations for a race can list what book/page # they are from and why they feel that way..
| DarthOmega wrote: | I wouldn’t see why it would since it just halves actual healing times.
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Fair enough..
| DarthOmega wrote: | Yeah I see your point, that’s stuff that should be reflected by the skills you choose to improve at character creation. What about the idea of fringer maybe getting a bonus to astrogation when in the outer rim, wild space, or unknown regions, and kind of a working knowledge of good hiding spots to lay low and avoid heat from the authorities? Maybe for each full D of Planetary Systems you know two or three different spots to lie low. The astrogation bonus would stack with Direction Sense if you had it.
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I can get behind that. Though i would make it for every full D planetary systems is above the base attribute (knowledge in this case), you gain 2 hidey holes..
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DarthOmega
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Joined: 27 Feb 2014
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Perhaps we could have a thread on which alien species others feel might be good candidates? Those making recommendations for a race can list what book/page # they are from and why they feel that way.. |
Nah, let’s just go with Force Users can’t take it, and put a notation that if a GM wants to allow a Force user to take it, that’s his call, but “officially” they can’t.
| garhkal wrote: | | I can get behind that. Though i would make it for every full D planetary systems is above the base attribute (knowledge in this case), you gain 2 hidey holes.. |
Sounds good.
And outside of the threads we have started for research, I think we’re done with regular advantages.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 12:57 am Post subject: |
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Ding.. seconds out round 2.. well tomorrow at least (for the combat ones!)
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DarthOmega
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:04 am Post subject: |
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Just remember when you review the Combat Advantages that a player can only take up to 5 points of them at character creation and that does count towards the 15 point advantages that character can take overall at character creation.
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gavin storm
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Joined: 07 Mar 2014
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| DarthOmega wrote: |
Child (5)
Being there is already an existing Kid template (that starts out younger than 16) and it has NO penalties for that (which we have discussed in several threads), i don't see this disadvantage being worth 5 full dice bonus, let alone even 1d bonus.
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Considering Star Wars seems to favour short women (Jaina Solo is 4ft 10 and she isn't the shortest human out there) This could be applied to an adult. 
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garhkal
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| DarthOmega wrote: | | Just remember when you review the Combat Advantages that a player can only take up to 5 points of them at character creation and that does count towards the 15 point advantages that character can take overall at character creation. |
Which unless they are taking a hell of a lot of disadvantages would rarely if ever even be halfway met (since they would have to give up all 7d of their starting skills AND take 8d worth of disadvantages to reach).. i don't see any pc doing that.
| DarthOmega wrote: | Adrenaline Junky (3)
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So i spend 3d at cha creation to get an extra 'half move' above my normal speed, but if i use it i am winded. Seems way too costly for what it gives, especially since more speed makes one easier to hit by storm troopers!
Perhaps if like the "Wired" reflexes cybernetics that Shadow run has, this goes 2d/3d or 4d, where each 'level' gives one free action (NO maps) per level purchased would be better.
| DarthOmega wrote: | Assault Training (5)
Must have a Strength of 4D
You have been trained to assault an enemy force mercilessly, and do so with brutal efficiency. When using a weapon that takes two hands to wield (vibro axe or blaster rifle for example), you have such control over it that may attack one extra target that is adjacent to your initial target with no multiple action penalty.
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SO i pop 5d for 1d off MAPs but only in a select number of situations. Way out of cost for what it gives.
If i was to have assault training be there, it would
A) Give a +2 bonus to skills such as Blaster (S) light repeater, Missile weapons, Firearms (S) assault rifles, Grenades and Melee (S) two handed weaponry.
B) when using 2 handed melee weapons, you would get to add 1d more to their damage (not to exceed the weapons max damage value).
and C) Cost 3 maybe 4d rather than 5.
| DarthOmega wrote: | Combat Alertness (1-3)
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Not bad. Sort of a special 'init booster' skill i have used in the past (A) spacial awareness)..
| DarthOmega wrote: | Combat Ambidexterity (5)
Must have a Dexterity of 4D
You are more adept at using both your hands equally in combat. If you are wielding two weapons, you may take an extra attack with your off-hand with no multiple action penalty.
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Again a 5d skill for a limited incident of getting 1d bonus. Drop this down to 2d.
| DarthOmega wrote: | | Commander’s Presence (1-3) |
So it sort of combines Tactics AND command into a free automatic bonus. Can they still dodge since they are 'giving up all actions to stand around and bark orders'?
| DarthOmega wrote: | | Defense Mastery (5) |
Don't like it. You are doing a full defense/parry which is explicit in that is all you get to do in the round. Also does nothing for your allies.
Hows about switching it to
Defensive harmony. When using this skill, you can make your parry roll (melee or brawl) but the roll counts for 1 ally in addition to counting for YOU per D of the trait taken. Any attack that comes at you or your 'ally that is successfully parried is turned back/avoided,
Can also be used for Dodging, again one ally per D of the trait taken, but unlike parries, IF your roll succeeds in 'defending the attack' its cause you jumped in the way of the bolt/blast/missile, and thus suffer the full damage of said attack.
| DarthOmega wrote: | Dogfighter (5)
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Not bad, but rather than a flat 5d cost, how's about make it where each D of the trait taken you get to pick ONE of those 5 maneuvers.?
| DarthOmega wrote: | | Duel Mastery (3) |
So 3d to gain a +2 to dodge/attack against only one opponent when in melee/brawl range. Seems a little high, so how's about you get to PICK whether your bonus is going to be offensive that round (+2 to hit, +2 to damage), defensive that round (+2 parry and soak) or middle of the road (+1 to attack and parry). Can choose which way you are going at the beginning of that combat round but it sticks for the remainder of that round.
| DarthOmega wrote: | | Fighting Style (5) |
How would one do a flying kick with a sword? Spinning sweep with a club? Or flip with a dagger?
I just don't see this.
| DarthOmega wrote: | | Immoveable Object (10) |
How can one take this if one is as mentioned above only able to take 5d of combat advantages? Also why is it called immovable object, when it does not have anything to do with being moved or resisting being thrown or falling?
A) Change the name to something like Bullish fortitude.
B) Drop down to the 5d max you already mentioned is the max you can take.
| DarthOmega wrote: | | Mounted Combat (2) |
Decent.
| DarthOmega wrote: | Natural Talent (10)
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Similar initial comment as with immovable object. How can this be a 10d trait when 5d is the max one can do for combat advantages?
With it giving a flat +1d to one skill and one reroll of it, it works ok for me as a 3d trait, maybe a 4d one at most.
| DarthOmega wrote: | Ready Defense (4)
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Should be 3d at the most for just giving a free reaction. Though does it do anything against 'surprise' attacks?
| DarthOmega wrote: | Redirected Effort (4)
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So yo give up a full round of action to gain auto init in the next round with no roll against your tactics/command? Does this apply to YOU only or all your allies as well?
| DarthOmega wrote: | | Strong Spirit (3) |
Is this just mental affecting ones (affect mind, dim others senses) or all powers including combat ones (Light saber combat, bolt of hatred, TK etc)??
| DarthOmega wrote: | Toughened Skin (3)
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Sort of giving yourself 1d of natural armor. i like it.
| DarthOmega wrote: | | Quick Draw (3) |
Should be 2d at most for a 'free drawing of your weapon'.
| DarthOmega wrote: | | Vehicular Combat (3) |
What do you mean you can ignore any penalties from movement? Are you on about the 'can only do a full vehicle dodge, and nothing else' aspect?
| DarthOmega wrote: | | Weaponry Expert (5) |
With both the D cost and the requirement of 6d in a starting combat skill, how is a beginning charcter supposed to meet this unless they are munchkinning out and maxing their dex (4d for a human) and their initial remaining 2d into that skill only (2d +5d for the trait = 7d starting characters get).
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DarthOmega
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 27 Feb 2014
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Location: Backside of WA state
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Which unless they are taking a hell of a lot of disadvantages would rarely if ever even be halfway met (since they would have to give up all 7d of their starting skills AND take 8d worth of disadvantages to reach).. i don't see any pc doing that. |
Well you’ve never played with or in the groups I have. Anytime there is a Merit/Flaw or Perk/Drawback type system most players I know max out on Flaws/Drawbacks/Disadvantages so that they can buy however many Merits/Perks/Advantages as they want, plus have extra points to spend elsewhere if they don’t use them all on Merits/Perks/Advantages . And while it sounds like all of the players I know are min/maxers they really aren’t (okay some are), some (like my wife) like to have disadvantages for role-play reasons as well as to give the GM plenty of hooks to come up with stories for the character.
| garhkal wrote: | So i spend 3d at cha creation to get an extra 'half move' above my normal speed, but if i use it i am winded. Seems way too costly for what it gives, especially since more speed makes one easier to hit by storm troopers!
Perhaps if like the "Wired" reflexes cybernetics that Shadow run has, this goes 2d/3d or 4d, where each 'level' gives one free action (NO maps) per level purchased would be better. |
I can take away the winded aspect, no problem. Just figured that much extra movement would need a drawback of sorts. As for the other option…I can see that being kind of game breaking.
Considering how you responded to some of the other combat advantages, I have to ask; how game breaking do you see extra actions being? I personally have found in most systems extra actions to be completely game breaking (except for AD&D where only one class gets extra actions and that’s one of the perks of the class). Look at original Vampire – Celerity is KING. If you don’t have Celerity, you may as well hang your coat up when combat starts, cause you’re done. It is the single most broken Discipline in V:tM. It’s one of the big changes they made in Requiem (the nWoD Vampire game), where they took away the extra actions Celerity gave, and I was happy for it.
| garhkal wrote: | SO i pop 5d for 1d off MAPs but only in a select number of situations. Way out of cost for what it gives.
If i was to have assault training be there, it would
A) Give a +2 bonus to skills such as Blaster (S) light repeater, Missile weapons, Firearms (S) assault rifles, Grenades and Melee (S) two handed weaponry.
B) when using 2 handed melee weapons, you would get to add 1d more to their damage (not to exceed the weapons max damage value).
and C) Cost 3 maybe 4d rather than 5. |
I was looking at it as an alternative to essentially the two-weapon fighting that combat ambidexterity below gives. The idea here was a “cleave” effect of sorts that gave an extra attack, like combat ambidexterity does, but in a way that makes sense for a two-handed weapon. I could take out the situational aspect of it, and just allow the player to make an attack against an extra target if he is in LoS and in range (for ranged) or if he is within reach (for melee). Again, though I think 5D for essentially what boils to a free extra attack action is priced about right, but again I think we see differently in those regards (something we will have to probably hash out and compromise on).
| garhkal wrote: | | Again a 5d skill for a limited incident of getting 1d bonus. Drop this down to 2d. |
See my above comments on extra actions. Keep in mind this is essentially a free attack action.
| garhkal wrote: | | So it sort of combines Tactics AND command into a free automatic bonus. Can they still dodge since they are 'giving up all actions to stand around and bark orders'? |
Nope, they give up their action. If there are skills that do this already, I can just make it a bonus to those skills instead or drop it entirely. I’ve read through those skills and never got the idea that that’s what they did. Tactics flat out states that it is used in military situations, and it says that Command is used to order about GM characters and should never be used on other players.
| garhkal wrote: | Don't like it. You are doing a full defense/parry which is explicit in that is all you get to do in the round. Also does nothing for your allies.
Hows about switching it to
Defensive harmony. When using this skill, you can make your parry roll (melee or brawl) but the roll counts for 1 ally in addition to counting for YOU per D of the trait taken. Any attack that comes at you or your 'ally that is successfully parried is turned back/avoided,
Can also be used for Dodging, again one ally per D of the trait taken, but unlike parries, IF your roll succeeds in 'defending the attack' its cause you jumped in the way of the bolt/blast/missile, and thus suffer the full damage of said attack. |
Yes, again which is why it’s priced the way it is. It’s essentially giving a free attack action, just like Assault Training and Combat Ambidexterity, only in this case it’s designed for people who like to be defensive. And why would it do anything for your allies? It’s essentially the ability to get that split second shot (or swing) into the mix while dodging, weaving, and parrying to defend yourself.
Thought I do like your idea for Defensive Harmony though. That’s pretty cool as a separate new advantage. No matter what, that will get added.
| garhkal wrote: | | Not bad, but rather than a flat 5d cost, how's about make it where each D of the trait taken you get to pick ONE of those 5 maneuvers.? |
That works too. Didn’t even make the correlation that there were 5 levels and 5 maneuvers so that works out perfectly.
| garhkal wrote: | | So 3d to gain a +2 to dodge/attack against only one opponent when in melee/brawl range. Seems a little high, so how's about you get to PICK whether your bonus is going to be offensive that round (+2 to hit, +2 to damage), defensive that round (+2 parry and soak) or middle of the road (+1 to attack and parry). Can choose which way you are going at the beginning of that combat round but it sticks for the remainder of that round. |
I like that. Will make the changes.
| garhkal wrote: | How would one do a flying kick with a sword? Spinning sweep with a club? Or flip with a dagger?
I just don't see this. |
It wouldn’t be a “flying kick” in this case, but rather a leaping attack of some sort but the attack would have to pass the difficulty of the maneuver, and if it did then the attack would get the bonus (in this case a +2D to damage). A spinning sweep with a club is easy enough, you hit them in the kneecap. The idea here is you can use martial arts maneuvers while using a weapon, you just have to be a little creative and switch the maneuvers description to match the weapon you’re holding. I never did understand why there were only rules for unarmed martial arts when there are plenty of weapon based martial arts out there, and especially in the SWU where there’s things like Lightsaber forms.
| garhkal wrote: | How can one take this if one is as mentioned above only able to take 5d of combat advantages? Also why is it called immovable object, when it does not have anything to do with being moved or resisting being thrown or falling?
A) Change the name to something like Bullish fortitude.
B) Drop down to the 5d max you already mentioned is the max you can take. |
It’s designed to be taken during play, not during character creation. Remember, unless it specifically states that it’s character creation only, these can be bought with CP (triple the listed cost for character advantages I think is what we settled on, and 5 times the listed cost for combat advantages).
As for the name, it’s a take on one of the elder level Fortitude power names is all. It’s the idea that you’re immovable because you won’t die and thus move off the mortal coil. But I can change the name. Had the idea of Juggernaut, but I really wanted to avoid giving my players reasons to say “I’m the Juggernaut, b****!”
| garhkal wrote: | Similar initial comment as with immovable object. How can this be a 10d trait when 5d is the max one can do for combat advantages?
With it giving a flat +1d to one skill and one reroll of it, it works ok for me as a 3d trait, maybe a 4d one at most. |
The 10D cost is addressed above. I personally feel that combat skills are worth more than non-combat skills, because combat is where the game is going to break if you aren’t careful. It’s why most games have more pages in their core books dedicated to combat over anything else. That’s why the high cost for this advantage (and the other advantages that give extra attacks). I can lower all the costs for the ones you suggested, but I’ll probably keep the prices as-is in my home games. I think I am beginning to realize at this point that it may be my personal GM style to do anything and everything to prevent combat from getting broken.
| garhkal wrote: | | Should be 3d at the most for just giving a free reaction. Though does it do anything against 'surprise' attacks? |
I’ll give a little on this one, and agree. I’ll drop the cost.
| garhkal wrote: | | So yo give up a full round of action to gain auto init in the next round with no roll against your tactics/command? Does this apply to YOU only or all your allies as well? |
Just yourself. It’s basically the ability to “Refocus” like d20 had.
| garhkal wrote: | | Is this just mental affecting ones (affect mind, dim others senses) or all powers including combat ones (Light saber combat, bolt of hatred, TK etc)?? |
Any that are targeted against you. Since LSC is targeted on the individual using it, it wouldn’t work against that (or Enhanced Attribute or anything similar).
| garhkal wrote: | | Should be 2d at most for a 'free drawing of your weapon'. |
I can see that. Will change.
| garhkal wrote: | | What do you mean you can ignore any penalties from movement? Are you on about the 'can only do a full vehicle dodge, and nothing else' aspect? |
To me there is no way that you can be in a fast-moving speeder, and the enemy can be on a fast moving speeder, and there not be any penalties for trying to shoot them with a personal blaster. Just not happening in my world. That’s what it’s referring to.
| garhkal wrote: | | With both the D cost and the requirement of 6d in a starting combat skill, how is a beginning charcter supposed to meet this unless they are munchkinning out and maxing their dex (4d for a human) and their initial remaining 2d into that skill only (2d +5d for the trait = 7d starting characters get). |
Again I think you underestimate people’s willingness to take Disadvantages to get the extra points. One of my players took this with his martial arts (which of course was a specialization), and did so easily (he has Enemy 5, Protector 4, Hunted 3 and I think Phobia 3). Yes he knows these will affect his character. He’s fine with it.
By the way, if we start getting mired in these we can always come back to them and do disadvantages first.
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Knowledge is power, and power corrupts...so what does that say about knowledge?
Read my gaming blog at www.alteredrealities.net - click on the tabs near the top for the different pages that usually have character bios and other info. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16391
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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At this point, you could easily break discussion of individual advantages and disadvantages down into their own dedicated topic threads and reserve this for final results rather than going with the thermonuclear quote exchanges...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14316
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| DarthOmega wrote: | Well you’ve never played with or in the groups I have. Anytime there is a Merit/Flaw or Perk/Drawback type system most players I know max out on Flaws/Drawbacks/Disadvantages so that they can buy however many Merits/Perks/Advantages as they want, plus have extra points to spend elsewhere if they don’t use them all on Merits/Perks/Advantages . And while it sounds like all of the players I know are min/maxers they really aren’t (okay some are), some (like my wife) like to have disadvantages for role-play reasons as well as to give the GM plenty of hooks to come up with stories for the character.
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How often do you actually push those flaws/disadvantages they have into play? If they rarely come up then those points are effectively free.
Also many other systems DO cap how many you can take (like white wolf limits you to 7 points worth of flaws.)
| DarthOmega wrote: | I can take away the winded aspect, no problem. Just figured that much extra movement would need a drawback of sorts. As for the other option…I can see that being kind of game breaking.
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True in some other systems a full on free action means full Dice pool for that one extra action, but in SW it just means one less D off for maps.
| DarthOmega wrote: | I was looking at it as an alternative to essentially the two-weapon fighting that combat ambidexterity below gives. The idea here was a “cleave” effect of sorts that gave an extra attack, like combat ambidexterity does, but in a way that makes sense for a two-handed weapon. I could take out the situational aspect of it, and just allow the player to make an attack against an extra target if he is in LoS and in range (for ranged) or if he is within reach (for melee). Again, though I think 5D for essentially what boils to a free extra attack action is priced about right, but again I think we see differently in those regards (something we will have to probably hash out and compromise on).
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BUt one free attack, which is effectively just a +1D (MAP) for 5d cost AND it is limited in when it can even come into play is where i see the disconnect.
| DarthOmega wrote: | Nope, they give up their action. If there are skills that do this already, I can just make it a bonus to those skills instead or drop it entirely. I’ve read through those skills and never got the idea that that’s what they did. Tactics flat out states that it is used in military situations, and it says that Command is used to order about GM characters and should never be used on other players.
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So your players never try to combine fire (which is what command is used for)?
| DarthOmega wrote: | Yes, again which is why it’s priced the way it is. It’s essentially giving a free attack action, just like Assault Training and Combat Ambidexterity, only in this case it’s designed for people who like to be defensive. And why would it do anything for your allies? It’s essentially the ability to get that split second shot (or swing) into the mix while dodging, weaving, and parrying to defend yourself.
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Again, a free action in SW does not equate to what it does in other systems. Take White wolf's werewolf for example. Each action you do is SPLITTING your dice pool up for each attack, in SW its just -1d from all. So a free action is 'less' valuable than what it would be in WW.
| DarthOmega wrote: | Thought I do like your idea for Defensive Harmony though. That’s pretty cool as a separate new advantage. No matter what, that will get added.
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Thanks.
| DarthOmega wrote: | I like that. Will make the changes.
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Glad you liked it.
| DarthOmega wrote: | It wouldn’t be a “flying kick” in this case, but rather a leaping attack of some sort but the attack would have to pass the difficulty of the maneuver, and if it did then the attack would get the bonus (in this case a +2D to damage). A spinning sweep with a club is easy enough, you hit them in the kneecap. The idea here is you can use martial arts maneuvers while using a weapon, you just have to be a little creative and switch the maneuvers description to match the weapon you’re holding. I never did understand why there were only rules for unarmed martial arts when there are plenty of weapon based martial arts out there, and especially in the SWU where there’s things like Lightsaber forms.
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Its more that those forms do things differently than martial arts. Also some martial art maneuvers are going to NOT have a correlation with a weapon attack. Sure a sweep can be accomplished with a foot as well as a staff, but a flip? Head butt.. Those are what i see as not being 'switchable to melee weapons.
| DarthOmega wrote: | It’s designed to be taken during play, not during character creation. Remember, unless it specifically states that it’s character creation only, these can be bought with CP (triple the listed cost for character advantages I think is what we settled on, and 5 times the listed cost for combat advantages).
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Which goes against the initial statement you made FOR combat advantages
| Code: | | Combat Advantages that a player can only take up to 5 points of them at character creation |
How can one be buying it in play if all combat advantages are character creation only? Something does not fit.
| DarthOmega wrote: | The 10D cost is addressed above. I personally feel that combat skills are worth more than non-combat skills, because combat is where the game is going to break if you aren’t careful. It’s why most games have more pages in their core books dedicated to combat over anything else. That’s why the high cost for this advantage (and the other advantages that give extra attacks). I can lower all the costs for the ones you suggested, but I’ll probably keep the prices as-is in my home games. I think I am beginning to realize at this point that it may be my personal GM style to do anything and everything to prevent combat from getting broken.
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Which again hits the above coded part. How can one be spending 10D for 5d of combat (character creation only) flaws??
| DarthOmega wrote: | | I’ll give a little on this one, and agree. I’ll drop the cost. |
Didn't address the surprise issue.
| DarthOmega wrote: | Just yourself. It’s basically the ability to “Refocus” like d20 had.
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Seems off then. For the cost at least.
| DarthOmega wrote: | Any that are targeted against you. Since LSC is targeted on the individual using it, it wouldn’t work against that (or Enhanced Attribute or anything similar).
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So its both mind boosting, as well as body/spirit? This one is too low of a cost then.
| DarthOmega wrote: | I can see that. Will change.
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Which i don't understand.. You can see 'free draw' of a weapon as 2d cost (which is just negating the -1d MAP) you would normally get for drawing a weapon, but not the other 'free actions'..?
| DarthOmega wrote: | To me there is no way that you can be in a fast-moving speeder, and the enemy can be on a fast moving speeder, and there not be any penalties for trying to shoot them with a personal blaster. Just not happening in my world. That’s what it’s referring to.
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But as is, movement does NOT affect targeting by the RAW.. So you would first off have to come up WITH those mods..
| DarthOmega wrote: | Again I think you underestimate people’s willingness to take Disadvantages to get the extra points. One of my players took this with his martial arts (which of course was a specialization), and did so easily (he has Enemy 5, Protector 4, Hunted 3 and I think Phobia 3). Yes he knows these will affect his character. He’s fine with it.
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Like i mentioned above, how often do those flaws come back to haunt them? Once every few sessions? Once a session? Rarer than that??
Also, as mentioned White wolf (one of the most well known advantages/flaws system) Caps you at how many flaws you can take to boost your starting points. It seems you don't.
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DarthOmega
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 27 Feb 2014
Posts: 121
Location: Backside of WA state
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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I'll post a quick reply to cover some of the overall issues here. I'll probably get to the individual advantages later.
First as to the Disadvantages. For some reason I thought I had typed in the cap. I always knew in my mind that the cap was 15. I knew it was 15 when I wrote it up, and I told my players it was 15. For some reason there was a slight disconnect in my head and I thought I had typed it in, but apparently I forgot to.
As for the Disadvantages coming up in game that is up to the individual GM. It is not my place to tell each GM that he must incur the penalties of a Disadvantage at points A B and C in his game. It's not place nor my responsibility. If a GM allows these into his game, it is up to him to make sure those disadvantages get played up or not as he wishes. I've played in both types of games, actually three types - one type where the GM ran the flaws fairly, one type where the GM ran them WAY to overboard, and the last type where they get completely ignored (play in the Camarilla games sometime, they NEVER pay attention to Flaws). So again it's up to the GM as to how often they come up, just like it's up to the ST in WoD to determine when flaws come up.
As for the Combat Advantages with a 10D cost, I think we're getting our wires crossed. I specifically state that you can only take 5 points at character creation. I then go on to state that costs after character creation is the listed price x5 in CP.
This is the exact way it's written in the OP - "Due to the nature of these advantages, only 5 points of combat advantages can be taken at character creation. Costs for combat advantages bought after character creation rise by 5 times the listed cost."
Note that none of the combat advantages have Character Creation Only like some of the character advantages do.
Am I a bit more strict in terms of how expensive combat advantages are? Yes. Yes that means that there are couple that cost 50 cp. And I am okay with that. If someone wants to buy one of those then they are going to have to really want it. In my experience (and most other gamers I've talked with) combat is where a game breaks down the quickest. You have to be REALLY careful when tweaking a combat system.
And yes there are a couple of places I am willing to slide on the multiple action front - and that is when the action in question does not affect other characters in any way. Drawing a weapon and extra movement don't affect the other characters.
Having said that however, with you being more familiar with the balance of this game, if you don't think free extra attacks should be worth a whole lot point-wise, and you think some of these are more expensive than they should be overall, then I am more than willing to bring down the costs for the overall document, I may just keep the higher costs for my home game.
I will definitely get to the individual advantage comments later this evening. Looking at the reply, I think we'll close this one out pretty quick because I think I agreed with a lot of what you had on there otherwise.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14316
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | First as to the Disadvantages. For some reason I thought I had typed in the cap. I always knew in my mind that the cap was 15. I knew it was 15 when I wrote it up, and I told my players it was 15. For some reason there was a slight disconnect in my head and I thought I had typed it in, but apparently I forgot to. |
15D of disadvantages?? WOW that is a lot.. So a starting PC could effectively start at 22D worth of skills (and/or advantages).. Almost seems like you like a real high power game.
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DarthOmega
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 27 Feb 2014
Posts: 121
Location: Backside of WA state
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 3:12 am Post subject: |
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Actually I don't prefer high powered games (ask my AD&D group, they're level 9 and still have like two +1 items among them). For the record I am shortening Advantages to ads and Disadvantages to disads from here on out.
Though at the moment for my own game I am testing Ads/Disads primarily as a separate system first to actually see the various Ads/Disads in play while we work on things here. So my players all made their regular characters first, then I had them choose Ads/Disads after their characters were otherwise done, and we can do that with this if you want, that way it doesn't otherwise impact character creation, and in fact that may be the better route to go.
For the 'official' version we can lower the point amount allowed if you think that would be better and more balanced overall, though that will impact the overall point values as well, especially for the Disads. I'll get to the individual stuff in just a moment in my next post.
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Knowledge is power, and power corrupts...so what does that say about knowledge?
Read my gaming blog at www.alteredrealities.net - click on the tabs near the top for the different pages that usually have character bios and other info. |
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