The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Movement and its Effect on To Hit Difficulty
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules -> Movement and its Effect on To Hit Difficulty Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It should.. moving fast yourself makes for a more unstable platform to shoot from.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leon The Lion
Commander
Commander


Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generally, it doesn't matter if the attacker is stationary and the target is moving by, or if the target is stationary and the attacker is moving by at the same speed. The effective movement of the target across the attacker's sights is the same (I'm talking speed of movement only, ignoring issues of a moving attacker's weapon stability for now).

Your original rules kind of already hint at this, as the movement penalty for a target directly closing in or moving away is based on the effective closing speed between attacker and target, not target speed alone.

All this is a long-winded way to say that, yes, the speed penalty probably should also be applied if the attacker is moving.

However, this has the potential to get complicated quickly (attacker and target moving at odd angles to each other) and/or piling on so high penalties as to make hitting when both attacker and target are moving almost impossible.

Also, the attacker is already penalized for shooting while moving, in the form of MAPs.

So there's some issues to figure out.
_________________
Plagiarize! Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes! So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize... Only be sure to call it, please, "research".
- Tom Lehrer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's why I tried to simplify it down to fire arcs rather than calculating odd angles and the like.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2295
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My preference would be to keep things a little more loose, leaving discretion up to the GM. As in:

The GM imposes a penalty of -1D to -3D, depending on what he/she thinks is appropriate, based on the speed of the opponents and other factors (like angles).
_________________
Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
My preference would be to keep things a little more loose, leaving discretion up to the GM. As in:

The GM imposes a penalty of -1D to -3D, depending on what he/she thinks is appropriate, based on the speed of the opponents and other factors (like angles).


But speaking as a member of Overworked GMs Anonymous, having some sort of table to generate a dice value is always appreciated.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon The Lion wrote:

Also, the attacker is already penalized for shooting while moving, in the form of MAPs.


Not all are. Take freighters for example. Rarely are the pilots there also the ones doing the shooting, same for most speeder sized combats i have had (most were on mil skiffs with 2-3 passengers and a pilot).. Only in single seat fighters is that the case (or on bikes).
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would argue that single pilot fighters with fixed forward weaponry (or indeed any ship with fixed forward weaponry) are actually overlapping their Piloting and Gunnery rolls, since the weapons are aimed by steering the ship. What form of bonus or reduced penalty this would take, I'm not sure, but it would seem appropriate.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Leon The Lion
Commander
Commander


Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland

PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
I would argue that single pilot fighters with fixed forward weaponry (or indeed any ship with fixed forward weaponry) are actually overlapping their Piloting and Gunnery rolls, since the weapons are aimed by steering the ship. What form of bonus or reduced penalty this would take, I'm not sure, but it would seem appropriate.

I think a bonus or reduced penalty in actual combat sounds iffy.

Except for situations when no-one's actually shooting at them, they must still do two things at once, one being keeping the ship from being hit, the other being pointing it (and by extension it's weapons) at the target. While the two are not mutually exclusive by far, I think in a firefight there'd be at least as many situations where they would be obviously conflicting as ones when one could help the other. Yes, it may happen that the exact way you need to dodge this particular attack will help put your fixed forward weapons on target. It's just as likely that it'll make it more difficult. So normal MAPs should apply at least.

Also, piloting already is a better, more valuable skill in it's kind of combat, as opposed to skills used in on-foot character combat. On foot, you dodge and maneuver/cross terrain with two different skills. In a vehicle, you only need to be good at a single skill to be proficient in both. Allowing piloting to benefit attacking to boot, when in on-foot combat it takes a third different skill... That just seems too good to me.

Plus, there's surely more to gunnery than just pointing the gun in the direction of the target, especially if you're not actually personally sigting down the barrel, but must rely on technological aids, like a HUD in a fighter. After all, would you seriously consider it, if a character strapped a gun rigidly to his torso and wanted a bonus to hit for his running skill, which, after all, he can now totally use to point it at the target with the rest of his body?

Yeah, the last one is probably a silly example, and not exactly equivalent, I know. Just thinking aloud. But like I said, even though I can see some logic to it, ultimately the whole idea just seems iffy to me.
_________________
Plagiarize! Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes! So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize... Only be sure to call it, please, "research".
- Tom Lehrer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Posts: 2295
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those are some really good points, Leon the Lion (and by the way, Leo the Lion is a really cool Villains & Vigilantes villain in our supers campaign, created by the creators of the game!)
_________________
Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Leon The Lion
Commander
Commander


Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:
(and by the way, Leo the Lion is a really cool Villains & Vigilantes villain in our supers campaign, created by the creators of the game!)

Ah, yes, him. He's the black sheep of the family. We don't usually mention him, and he's not invited to family functions.
_________________
Plagiarize! Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes! So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize... Only be sure to call it, please, "research".
- Tom Lehrer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon The Lion wrote:
Except for situations when no-one's actually shooting at them, they must still do two things at once, one being keeping the ship from being hit, the other being pointing it (and by extension it's weapons) at the target. While the two are not mutually exclusive by far, I think in a firefight there'd be at least as many situations where they would be obviously conflicting as ones when one could help the other. Yes, it may happen that the exact way you need to dodge this particular attack will help put your fixed forward weapons on target. It's just as likely that it'll make it more difficult. So normal MAPs should apply at least.


How about a bonus to Gunnery based on how well the Piloting roll succeeded? It won't knock out the MAP for having to do two things at once, but if the pilot is good enough, his skill can counteract it...
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Leon The Lion
Commander
Commander


Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
How about a bonus to Gunnery based on how well the Piloting roll succeeded? It won't knock out the MAP for having to do two things at once, but if the pilot is good enough, his skill can counteract it...

But the Piloting roll has no guaranteed direct correlation to the Gunnery roll. Sure, a very high roll for Piloting will mean you dodged the enemy fire very well, beautifully even, with such consumate skill that their shots didn't even come close to touching you... But it in no way guarantees or lets you assume that doing so left your nose pointed at the target - because that's not what you ware actually rolling for.

If you wanted to explicitly combine the two goals - evading enemy fire and keeping your fixed weapons pointed precisely at the target - in a single roll, I'd say you should suffer an additional penalty to the Piloting roll. Because you're trying to accomplish two separate - related, but not necessarily fully compatible in any single particular situation - tasks in a single action. Then, if you succeeded at the increased difficulty Piloting roll, I'd grant you a bonus to the Gunnery roll. For a quick and simple ruling, I'd let you move the MAP from the Gunnery roll to the Piloting roll, so that (if you're doing nothing else this turn) the Piloting sufferes a -2D penalty instead of -1D, but in return Gunnery has no penalty instead of -1D.
_________________
Plagiarize! Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes! So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize... Only be sure to call it, please, "research".
- Tom Lehrer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why does the Piloting roll automatically mean he was dodging? In the films, there isn't a lot of evasive maneuvering unless there is actually a fighter on their tail. However, proper angling of a fixed forward weapon is just as dependent on the pilot's skill at lining up the shot as it is on him pulling the trigger at the right time. Why wouldn't a high roll on Piloting not have a positive effect on weapon accuracy?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)


Joined: 04 Jan 2004
Posts: 4866

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is anything like the old X-Wing games (and that is a BIG IF), then it may be that the skills are two different ways of using the same basic control system. Yes, you do have to know how to pilot the ship to get out of the way of enemy fire, maneuver through an obstacle course, and line up the forward cannons. However, I could be very good at piloting and juking in such a way that I never got hit. Though it was a slightly different understanding of how to operate those same controls to line up a long shot, know how my fire arc interacts with my current movement, and how to eyeball certain shots where an HUD may not be of help.
_________________
__________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Leon The Lion
Commander
Commander


Joined: 29 Oct 2009
Posts: 309
Location: Somewhere in Poland

PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Why does the Piloting roll automatically mean he was dodging? In the films, there isn't a lot of evasive maneuvering unless there is actually a fighter on their tail.

Change dodging enemy fire into "dodging" terrain obstacles in my post, if you like. It doesn't chage my point any, I don't think.

crmcneill wrote:
However, proper angling of a fixed forward weapon is just as dependent on the pilot's skill at lining up the shot as it is on him pulling the trigger at the right time. Why wouldn't a high roll on Piloting not have a positive effect on weapon accuracy?

What do you do in a situation when the pilot does not need to make any piloting roll, like moving at half speed through very easy to moderate terrain, or just standing still? Should going fast enough to need piloting rolls actually improve your aim? Or do you add a roll where one is not needed, just to see what effect it has on gunnery?

I can agree that piloting should effect gunnery. But I can't agree that the effect, if one exists, should only ever be automatically positive. My point about trying to do two different, not mutually exclusive but not automatically compatible things with a single action rermains. A piloting roll that was only passed by a low margin should actually cause a penalty first, and only as the margin of success rises should the penalty go down, finally reaching zero, and then transform into an increasing bonus.
_________________
Plagiarize! Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes! So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize... Only be sure to call it, please, "research".
- Tom Lehrer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0