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cheshire Arbiter-General (Moderator)

Joined: 04 Jan 2004 Posts: 4866
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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If you're looking to play fast and loose with Sabaac, I did a rule varient a long time ago. I had a player that wanted to try his hand at Sabaac ALL THE TIME. So, rather than taking up game time with card games within the game, we reduced it to die rolls... but with a bit of extra spice thrown in to distinguish between the hand and the pot.
Perhaps its time to dust off these old rules and come up with something new and different.
You can find the rules on my 4shared:
http://search.4shared.com/postDownload/EE-hNjdz/Guide_to_Sabacc_v1_2_6.html _________________ __________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral


Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2295 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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atgxtg wrote: | Mixing and matching and/or coming up with your own rules is pretty much what we did. The various levels of complexity and variant games developed because of what we were trying to do with gambling.
When we just needed it for background color we went with something simple, typically a single roll against the "house" with the amount won or lost based upon the margin of difference and the stakes. When we used gambling as a center point for a scene or adventure we needed something that allowed us to build up tension and drama.
Of course the credit flow can be a problem, too. The gambling in our campaign frequently ends up making more credits at the tables than the freighter captain does buying and selling cargo. |
Yeah, so far mixing and matching seems to be working the best for what I'm trying to accomplish.
I understand the credit flow problem, too. I suppose this could be a real problem if you did it all the time (regularly). But if done pretty rarely, it gives the characters the chance to unwind a bit (have some fun) and allows the Gambling characters a chance to shine. As for making more than the freighter captain, we even have some precedent for that; after all, Han won the Falcon on a game of sabacc!
The main reason I'm doing this is to build up the sense of camaraderie and friendship, being as one of the PCs is going to suffer a heroic death right after we play! _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral


Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2295 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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cheshire wrote: | If you're looking to play fast and loose with Sabaac, I did a rule varient a long time ago. I had a player that wanted to try his hand at Sabaac ALL THE TIME. So, rather than taking up game time with card games within the game, we reduced it to die rolls... but with a bit of extra spice thrown in to distinguish between the hand and the pot.
Perhaps its time to dust off these old rules and come up with something new and different.
You can find the rules on my 4shared:
http://search.4shared.com/postDownload/EE-hNjdz/Guide_to_Sabacc_v1_2_6.html |
Thanks so much, and what little I've seen of it looks amazing, cheshire.
But I can't seem to access the whole document? I even downloaded the full iLivid software, but it keeps doing the same thing (trying to run the executable iLivid setup), every time I try to access the PDF.
I've tried logging in with my Google+ account, doing just the "View Document", and about a half dozen other ways. I can see your whole enticing list of cool documents (Droid Damage, Optional Rules, etc.), but can't seem to access any of them!
Any ideas? _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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cheshire Arbiter-General (Moderator)

Joined: 04 Jan 2004 Posts: 4866
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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4shared has gotten kinda tricky. Literally, it tries to TRICK you into downloading something else. There's a little gray box that has "download" in small script, rather than the four or five brightly colored boxes that say
DOWNLOAD!. Hunt for it on the page and you'll see it. Maybe I should post a capture of where to click. _________________ __________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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cheshire Arbiter-General (Moderator)

Joined: 04 Jan 2004 Posts: 4866
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Just to show you how absurd it is:
 _________________ __________________________________
Before we take any of this too seriously, just remember that in the middle episode a little rubber puppet moves a spaceship with his mind. |
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Leon The Lion Commander


Joined: 29 Oct 2009 Posts: 309 Location: Somewhere in Poland
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 10:12 am Post subject: |
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cheshire wrote: | If you're looking to play fast and loose with Sabaac, I did a rule varient a long time ago. I had a player that wanted to try his hand at Sabaac ALL THE TIME. So, rather than taking up game time with card games within the game, we reduced it to die rolls... but with a bit of extra spice thrown in to distinguish between the hand and the pot.
Perhaps its time to dust off these old rules and come up with something new and different.
You can find the rules on my 4shared:
http://search.4shared.com/postDownload/EE-hNjdz/Guide_to_Sabacc_v1_2_6.html |
I've been using those rules in my game for a long time, with great success. Thank you for sharing them. _________________ Plagiarize! Let no one else's work evade your eyes,
Remember why the good Lord made your eyes! So don't shade your eyes,
But plagiarize, plagiarize, plagiarize... Only be sure to call it, please, "research".
- Tom Lehrer |
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atgxtg Rear Admiral


Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 2460
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:40 am Post subject: |
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cheshire wrote: | Just to show you how absurd it is:
] |
LOL!
4-shared started going downhill when they started to require people to register. I think it's days are numbered. |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral


Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2295 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks, chesh. I'll try it again when I get home.
In the meantime, I've played a second session (actually sitting down at the table) and played things out, which is continually allowing me to hone and refine what I've got.
The one thing that's got me stumped is the "Calling" portion. For instance, on one of the methods, it's got:
Calling Phase
A player has the option to call the hand during another player's calling phase but never his own.
Me and the people who tested with me can't figure out what this could mean? _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral


Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2295 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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So, compiling and adjusting based on the many methods of doing sabacc, here's what I've come up with (and I reserve the right to tinker some more based on cheshire's stuff, but we are playing tomorrow night). And yes, I realize it's a bit redundant in a few places.
Sabacc
A typical game of sabacc is composed of several sequential rounds, and officially ends when a player wins with one of three special winning hands. At the beginning of each round, each player contributes an ante to the hand pot, which goes to the person with the winning hand at the conclusion of that hand. The winner in standard sabacc is the player who holds the hand with an absolute value closest to 23 (with both +23 and −23 being possible); this player wins the hand pot. Since −21 is closer to −23 than 20 is to 23, −21 would trump positive 20; however, in a situation where both −21 and 21 are in play at the same time, the positive 21 would triumph. Players with a hand above 23 or below −23 are considered to have Bombed Out, thus losing the hand, and being forced to pay (ante again) into the sabacc pot.
The sabacc pot is another pot to which players must ante each hand. This special pot can be won only by winning a hand with one of the three trump scores: a pure sabacc of either +23 or −23 (with the former trumping the latter) or an Idiot's Array. The Array is a special hand containing a card called The Idiot, worth zero, a Two of any suit, and a Three of the same suit. When laid out on the table, an Idiot's Array is read, literally, as 023, and is considered the highest hand in the game, trumping even a pure sabacc of 23. A win with any of those three special hands will give that player both the hand pot and the sabacc pot, and is typically seen as the end of gameplay for a single game.
One player each round is designated the Sabacc Dealer, and that position rotates to the left on each subsequent hand (note that this is different from the actual dealer of cards when there is a droid dealer present). Player 1 is the person to the left of the Sabacc Dealer.
Calling Phase
Everybody antes into the hand pot (5 credits) and the sabacc pot (5 credits), beginning with Player 1.
Each player is dealt three cards one at a time, beginning with Player 1.
Any player who gets a pure sabacc (23 or -23) or an Idiot’s Array (0,2,3) can call the hand, at which point all hands are shown and the winner collects all that has been anted. Note that a player with a pure sabacc or Idiot’s Array may choose to continue on without calling. The person who wins with an Idiot’s Array or a pure sabacc also gets the full sabacc pot.
All players roll Gambling, and the person who rolls highest is referred to as the Gambler for the remainder of the round.
The Gambler is given one additional card.
At the end of this phase, each player may lock in one card (that goes in front of them and is not subject to shifting). Any player may look at their locked card again at any time.
Shifting Phase
The Sabacc Dealer rolls 1D. On a 1-3, a shift occurs (to simulate the electronic randomization that can happen) and each player picks one card at random from the hand to his right, putting them into a separate pile called the sabacc pile. The sabacc pile is shuffled up, and everyone picks one card from it, starting with Player 1.
Draw Phase
In order, everyone can draw up to one card, then can discard up to one card (the Gambler may discard two cards).
Betting Phase
Beginning with Player 1, each player has the option to place a bet. If he bets, all others must either call, bet higher, or fold. If they fold, credits go into the hand pot.
Closest to 23 without going over wins (even if it’s negative 23). Positive beats negative, and in the case of a tie, the player with the least amount of cards wins. If still tied, each player rolls Gambling and the one with the higher total wins.
The winner receives the hand pot. The winner who has a pure sabacc or an Idiot’s Array also collects the sabacc pot.
If everyone else folds, the winner is not required to show his hand. However, the winner can show their hand if they get a pure sabacc or Idiot’s Array (which wins the sabacc pot).
When the deck is approximately half full, all cards should be shuffled.
The play of a pure sabacc or an Idiot’s Array typically ends the game.
Cheating
Cheating can be done as normal:
• If one person cheats, he automatically wins, but must roll Gambling opposed by all other player's Gambling to keep it undetected.
• If the house notices the cheat (the house has Gambling 5D), that player gets the boot and loses all credits in the pot.
• If there are multiple cheaters, they roll separately to see who wins, and then again vs. all other players to see if they keep their cheat undetected.
• The winner of the cheat against multiple other cheaters does not have to re-roll against all the other players; spoils to the victor (hopefully)! _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral


Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2295 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Made a slight change, based on the recommendations of my players. Added a second betting phase (so now there's one before the shift and after the draw.
I can post the whole things again, with this amendment, if anybody wants (or make an easy PDF).
Overall it went pretty well and I think the players had fun! _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral


Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2295 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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FWIW, I used my method, with the only change being the addition of a second betting phase (something originally in there, but removed to speed up play), based on the requests of my players.
We played for quite a bit, the players had fun, and it worked well!  _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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Random_Axe Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 11 Sep 2013 Posts: 103 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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I've noticed that all the suggestions everyone has here, assume that the players actually go through the motions of playing hands and so on. And all of it seems based on the ruleset provided in the original Crisis on coud City game.
On the other hand I made up a quick framework where the "game play" is totally abstract, the Gambling Skill rolls dictate mostly everything, and even preserves the state of randomness that Sabaac cards provide in-universe. Basically all the PCs who are engaging in the Sabaac game roll their respective Gambling Skill dice to see who does best; while the GM rolls a pair of other dice secretly to see what actually happens to the hand and winnings. I made up a table for the hand results, and added a couple of variant rules for when a PC joins a gambling table just for the purpose of scoping out the room, or picking up rumours around the table (where his attention therefore is not really on the card game itself).
If anyone is interested I can try to attach the doc to the post. |
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atgxtg Rear Admiral


Joined: 22 Mar 2009 Posts: 2460
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Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Random_Axe wrote: | I've noticed that all the suggestions everyone has here, assume that the players actually go through the motions of playing hands and so on. And all of it seems based on the ruleset provided in the original Crisis on coud City game.
On the other hand I made up a quick framework where the "game play" is totally abstract, the Gambling Skill rolls dictate mostly everything, and even preserves the state of randomness that Sabaac cards provide in-universe. Basically all the PCs who are engaging in the Sabaac game roll their respective Gambling Skill dice to see who does best; while the GM rolls a pair of other dice secretly to see what actually happens to the hand and winnings. I made up a table for the hand results, and added a couple of variant rules for when a PC joins a gambling table just for the purpose of scoping out the room, or picking up rumours around the table (where his attention therefore is not really on the card game itself).
If anyone is interested I can try to attach the doc to the post. |
We tried that. The problem we ran into was that once the PCs reach a certain skill level the risk disappears and it just turns into an easy was to generate some fast credits. For example in our campaign we have a PC Gambler with 10D in his gambling skill. Now opponents that can really give a 10D skill code challenge are few and far between.
In real gambling there is a strong element of chance, and the random probabilities of cards, dice or other variables plays a larger factor in the outcome than skill. |
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DougRed4 Rear Admiral


Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Posts: 2295 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I'd still be interested in seeing your method, Random (and welcome, btw!).
It is true that you have to be careful when PCs get their Gambling too high. Even if they're 6D, or 7D, they're going to probably win the vast majority of the time. And then do you allow them to spend Character Points when they're gambling? If not, why do they get to do so when piloting, fighting, repairing, etc.? _________________ Currently Running: Villains & Vigilantes (a 32-year-old campaign with multiple groups) and D6 Star Wars; mostly on hiatus are Adventures in Middle-earth and Delta Green |
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Mojomoe Commander


Joined: 10 Apr 2010 Posts: 442 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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What about a system where the players rolled their skill in private, and a D20 in full view? The D20 represents the visible/showing cards, the Gambling roll represents the hidden hand. A high Gambling skill would benefit, but hardly guarantee a win.
Players could also bet based on the D20 showing. But they could bluff with their hidden Gambling roll. Could also do hidden Gambling roll and 2 D10 rolls, one visible and one shown, to add to the bluff?
Granted that doesn't use the cards, but I'd assume my group would want it boiled to essentials. I made printed money, and the asked "why not just write a number down?" Lol. |
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