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DougRed4
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 Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:26 am Post subject: |
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I'll be honest, Tupteq. The Game Designer part of me is always intrigued by (and curious about) new mechanics, so part of me wants to try this.
But part of the fun with D6 (for both me and my players) is rolling up the stereotypical "big handful 'o dice".
So I'm not sure...
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:34 am Post subject: |
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The way one of my friends runs it, he uses roll and keep... but I have't played with him since he started doing it this way.
I'm assuming it's "roll skill, keep attribute." But if that's the case, I don't see how many rolls will achieve higher than moderate, maybe difficult, with the max number of kept dice being in the 3D-5D range.
Also, we've gotten pretty quick at counting. Counting pairs is one way, and counting groups of 10 is another that works pretty quick.
Generally, our final battle at the end of the campaign has traditionally yielded rolls in the 80s and 90s, as we blow through all our FPs and character points... though I had one character (a pilot) who, for some weird reason, was always rolling well above heroic on 5 to 6 dice... and a different character (a Jedi) who made heroic-plus rolls on Perception checks (3D+2) all the time... |
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Tupteq
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
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Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: | But part of the fun with D6 (for both me and my players) is rolling up the stereotypical "big handful 'o dice".
So I'm not sure... |
You still roll many dice, you only don't count all of them 
| Naaman wrote: | The way one of my friends runs it, he uses roll and keep... but I have't played with him since he started doing it this way.
I'm assuming it's "roll skill, keep attribute." But if that's the case, I don't see how many rolls will achieve higher than moderate, maybe difficult, with the max number of kept dice being in the 3D-5D range.
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Before I decided to use this mechanics I calculated success chance of many variants of roll&keep. My final solution doesn't affect results as much as your friend's solution. Only exceeding dice (dice above your skill) aren't kept, so this usually applies to equipment bonus. Moreover 1ND effectively negates MAP, so thank to bonus you may do multiple actions at full dice.
On the other hand maneuverability and fire control are much weaker. They are still useful to reduce MAP, but bonus they provide is much smaller. But fact that both FC and man. have reduced power, causes that balance is still kept.
Example: Sentinel IV blaster provides +1D to blaster (if user had skill above 6D), so well trained shooter (7D) may shoot once at 7D+1ND or twice at 7D+1ND-1D=7D each.
| Naaman wrote: | Also, we've gotten pretty quick at counting. Counting pairs is one way, and counting groups of 10 is another that works pretty quick.
Generally, our final battle at the end of the campaign has traditionally yielded rolls in the 80s and 90s, as we blow through all our FPs and character points... though I had one character (a pilot) who, for some weird reason, was always rolling well above heroic on 5 to 6 dice... and a different character (a Jedi) who made heroic-plus rolls on Perception checks (3D+2) all the time... |
With R&K all this still apply. Force Points double number of kept dice, so 6D doubled is 12D, not 6D+6ND.
On the other hand concentration force power in my games provides 4ND bonus (-1D for MAP, gives 3ND), so it's much weaker than original.
One more note about R&K - since I'm using it, I noticed that my players instead of focusing on few skills, learn many skills, it's because no tool can replace the real skill. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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I see, I see.
I tend to prefer a group with minimal skill overlap, so as to preserve the "value" of individual choices in character type.
This may be the d20 side of me coming out, but I always like for it to mean something when a player says, "I want to play a such-and-such." So that the group really has to rely on the brash pilot during the escape from Courescant. The really have to rely on the slicer to get that docking bay door opened. They really jave to rely on the yoing senatorial to negotiate that last seat on the smuggler's ship. |
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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I'm of the same mind on that, Naaman, and I'm not even very familiar with d20. I really like it when individual characters are given their moments to shine.
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Tupteq
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
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Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| Naaman wrote: | I tend to prefer a group with minimal skill overlap, so as to preserve the "value" of individual choices in character type.
This may be the d20 side of me coming out, but I always like for it to mean something when a player says, "I want to play a such-and-such." So that the group really has to rely on the brash pilot during the escape from Courescant. The really have to rely on the slicer to get that docking bay door opened. They really jave to rely on the yoing senatorial to negotiate that last seat on the smuggler's ship. |
| DougRed4 wrote: | | I'm of the same mind on that, Naaman, and I'm not even very familiar with d20. I really like it when individual characters are given their moments to shine. |
I think you both misunderstood (or maybe I wrote it wrong). I'm not saying that each player learns the same skills. Pilot is still best in piloting, soldier is best in blaster etc., but for example each player learned some repair skills (to repair or modify their own stuff). Each player took some running, search and some knowledge skills. It's not skill overlapping unless you think some blaster skill taken by pilot is an overlap. But still, each PC shines in some moments.
But maybe my vision is slightly different than yours. I don't like situation when one PC always does all job of certain type and only this (e.g. only one is able to do simple repair or persuade someone). I like original and colorful characters, like my current PCs: pilot/gunslinger/vehicle tech/noble, jedi/thief/art expert/face, foot soldier/walker operator/historian, heavy weapon guy/martial artist/businessman/cyborg/doctor/brainwashing expert.
Most skill overlapping skills of my PCs is for Perception attribute - each PC has search, some persuasion and investigation, which is most useful when PCs split and divide their job into smaller pieces or do few things simultaneously. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:34 am Post subject: |
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Skill selecton is definitely campaign dependent. Our groups tend to play slight variations on the same overall skill set (except me). Lots of blaster, dodge and either brawling or melee combat.
But our players also have different ideas of what is fun. One player likes to amass wealth and "stuff" (capitol ships, palaces, servants, etc). Another likes to just run around killing things (hack and slash type player). Another likes to wheel and deal in-character. But at the end of the day, combat tends to dominate our time.
So everyone tends to have blater as their highest skill...
In any case, its good to have a back-up or second string character for those pinch moments, and I think that a lot of groups tend to wind up being this way whether on purpose or not. I see no problem with it. |
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Liquidsabre
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Joined: 16 Apr 2005
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Location: Olathe, KS
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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Hey nice to this still being worked on Tupteq! I never quite figured out how to handle the pips, nice to see you worked it out. I think R&K applied to bonuses like this help keep the bonus dice from force powers under control vs. non-force users and can scale back equipment bonuses a bit. The trade off for keep dice is great. Are you still trading 3NKD (non-kept dice) for 1KD?
I plan on putting together what you're using in an effort to convince my game group to play some d6 Star Wars!
To expand on the use of R&K I had two thoughts I'd like to propose:
(1) Add a soft cap on max kept dice for skills equal to linked attribute x2. So a character with Mechanics 3D will have a max kept dice pool of 6. Skills with dice pools higher than 6D are soft capped into NKD. Characters can still raise their skills and use them as NKD but must increase their attributes to increase their KD pool. Making it very worthwhile for highly skilled characters to spend points on their attributes when they would otherwise languish for focused characters.
This has an added utility for campaign design for GMs. Looking for a grittier low-powered game? Set the KD cap = attribute. Want a more powerful and epic game, discard the cap altogether. Want to keep the cap but allow for greater growth? Increase max attributes to 5 or 6D.
(2) Add Advanced skill dice as NKD to the skill(s) they modify! Non-combat expertise advanced skills such as Medicine or using a single Engineering advanced skill (which I highly recommend) add dice as NKD to any skill roll that makes sense without busting the kept dice pools!
For combat Advanced skills, you get parody with force users for all our non-force using characters! Add a Sharpshooting advanced skill dice to an attack or damage (or initiatve for a quick draw) as NKD! Or even have a force user specialized in alter take a Weapon Mastery advanced skill instead of a force powers a be able to hold their own or, egads, do both like count dooku probably did. I have a house rule for advanced combat skills that also allow trading of NKD to perform maneuvers as well. With advanced maneuvers unlocked via purchased Traits/Advantages. I should work it up all nice and share if anyone is interested.
Cheers,
-Liquid
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DougRed4
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| Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Tupteq wrote: | | Naaman wrote: | I tend to prefer a group with minimal skill overlap, so as to preserve the "value" of individual choices in character type.
This may be the d20 side of me coming out, but I always like for it to mean something when a player says, "I want to play a such-and-such." So that the group really has to rely on the brash pilot during the escape from Courescant. The really have to rely on the slicer to get that docking bay door opened. They really jave to rely on the yoing senatorial to negotiate that last seat on the smuggler's ship. |
| DougRed4 wrote: | | I'm of the same mind on that, Naaman, and I'm not even very familiar with d20. I really like it when individual characters are given their moments to shine. |
I think you both misunderstood (or maybe I wrote it wrong). I'm not saying that each player learns the same skills. Pilot is still best in piloting, soldier is best in blaster etc., but for example each player learned some repair skills (to repair or modify their own stuff). Each player took some running, search and some knowledge skills. It's not skill overlapping unless you think some blaster skill taken by pilot is an overlap. But still, each PC shines in some moments.
But maybe my vision is slightly different than yours. I don't like situation when one PC always does all job of certain type and only this (e.g. only one is able to do simple repair or persuade someone). I like original and colorful characters, like my current PCs: pilot/gunslinger/vehicle tech/noble, jedi/thief/art expert/face, foot soldier/walker operator/historian, heavy weapon guy/martial artist/businessman/cyborg/doctor/brainwashing expert.
Most skill overlapping skills of my PCs is for Perception attribute - each PC has search, some persuasion and investigation, which is most useful when PCs split and divide their job into smaller pieces or do few things simultaneously. |
No, that's totally cool, Tupteq, and it sounds like you still have quite a bit of differentiation between characters.
Most of my characters have some overlap in some skills, too, like Dodge, Blaster, Search, etc.
It's good, though, when you really need someone for that Repair roll and you have a PC who is really, really good with that. It sounds like we're all on the same page there.
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Tupteq
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 285
Location: Rzeszów, Poland
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Liquidsabre wrote: | | Hey nice to this still being worked on Tupteq! I never quite figured out how to handle the pips, nice to see you worked it out. |
Adding pips normally (without converting of any kind) is much simpler, with other solutions my players continuously asked for help.
| Liquidsabre wrote: | | I think R&K applied to bonuses like this help keep the bonus dice from force powers under control vs. non-force users and can scale back equipment bonuses a bit. |
That's exactly what I wanted to achieve and so far it works great.
| Liquidsabre wrote: | | The trade off for keep dice is great. Are you still trading 3NKD (non-kept dice) for 1KD? |
Yes, I'm allowing such trade. You effectively roll 2 dice less, but you keep one die more (3D+4ND -> 4D+1ND) - depending on perspective it's 1D for 2ND (you roll only two dice less) or 1D for 3ND (you have 3ND less). I calculated probabilities and this exchange is optimal, it generates lower totals if you have just few ND (so exchange is unprofitable), but it gets better when you have plenty of NDs.
I was also thinking about rule that enforces conversion as many as possible ND to D, but I never tested it because my players really like to roll a lot and keep less
| Liquidsabre wrote: | | I plan on putting together what you're using in an effort to convince my game group to play some d6 Star Wars! |
In my next post I'll write down all rules I'm using now, for future reference.
| Liquidsabre wrote: | To expand on the use of R&K I had two thoughts I'd like to propose:
(1) Add a soft cap on max kept dice for skills equal to linked attribute x2. So a character with Mechanics 3D will have a max kept dice pool of 6. Skills with dice pools higher than 6D are soft capped into NKD. Characters can still raise their skills and use them as NKD but must increase their attributes to increase their KD pool. Making it very worthwhile for highly skilled characters to spend points on their attributes when they would otherwise languish for focused characters.
This has an added utility for campaign design for GMs. Looking for a grittier low-powered game? Set the KD cap = attribute. Want a more powerful and epic game, discard the cap altogether. Want to keep the cap but allow for greater growth? Increase max attributes to 5 or 6D. |
I think it may be very limiting factor. 1ND raises result only by about 1-1.5, so it's not as powerful as it may look like at first. Moreover, in case when attribute has some pips, everything complicates (DEX 3D+2, you roll 4D and keep 3D+2, how?).
Additionally, with such limits your characters will face a wall in their abilities that is not possible to pass, PCs will see no progress in their skills after they exceed the magic barrier. It will be frustrating, because they will spend lot of CPs to see no progress (1ND raises roll only minimally).
And from my experiences with raising attributes - if following RAW, PC has to spend 1 week (5 days) on training for each CP spent to raise attribute if he has a teacher. Without the teacher time is doubled, so to raise DEX from 3D to 3D+1 you spend 30 CP, which requires 30 weeks of training or 60 weeks (300 days!) if you have no teacher. If you are adventuring and learning, you may train only when idle, so required time may easily double or triple (depending on intensity of your adventuring). In my games I'm not doubling time for self-learning, but despite that fact none of my players ever raised any attribute (they were thinking about that but resigned after they found how long it will take).
So, my advise here is to not cap max kept dice this way, because it may kill the joy of play.
| Liquidsabre wrote: | | (2) Add Advanced skill dice as NKD to the skill(s) they modify! Non-combat expertise advanced skills such as Medicine or using a single Engineering advanced skill (which I highly recommend) add dice as NKD to any skill roll that makes sense without busting the kept dice pools! |
I'm already doing that. My PCs may add advanced skill to the base skill (medicine to first aid, brainwashing to intimidation etc.) to almost all rolls (they add it by default, unless I forbid it). This works great, even if advanced skill is on low level (1D+2 or so). It's not overpowering, but this way expert is visibly more capable.
| Liquidsabre wrote: | | For combat Advanced skills, you get parody with force users for all our non-force using characters! Add a Sharpshooting advanced skill dice to an attack or damage (or initiatve for a quick draw) as NKD! Or even have a force user specialized in alter take a Weapon Mastery advanced skill instead of a force powers a be able to hold their own or, egads, do both like count dooku probably did. |
Nice ideas here, worth thinking more about them. Maybe even more general solution could be created, so Jedi could enhance any of his skills by adding to rolls appropriate force skills as NKDs? Or maybe it's too powerful. Anyways, it's just an idea.
Currently, for lightsaber combat, I'm adding both control and sense bonuses as NKD, so character may perform well when wounded or do many actions in round, but NKDs don't let lightsaber combat to be overpowered.
| Liquidsabre wrote: | | I have a house rule for advanced combat skills that also allow trading of NKD to perform maneuvers as well. With advanced maneuvers unlocked via purchased Traits/Advantages. I should work it up all nice and share if anyone is interested. |
Interested
| DougRed4 wrote: | | It's good, though, when you really need someone for that Repair roll and you have a PC who is really, really good with that. It sounds like we're all on the same page there. |
Agreed. And these techs live for that moments |
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