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Inverse Optional Damage Rule
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmanski wrote:
I assume you are working up a proposal? Personally I would like to see two separate proposals so we can have more options. One could use either, combine parts of the two, or use them as inspiration for yet another idea.


I agree. I think a good deal of my frustration is that I'm not understanding exactly what you are proposing, or what sort of real life or in-film scenarios you are basing it on.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
House Rules help here. For one, I use scale steps of 4D, so a Walker would be +8D over Character-Scale, so the cannon inflicts 12D Character-Scale damage instead of 8D. For another, with the application of auto-fire rules, I downgrade repeating blaster stats by 1D (so an E-Web drops from 8D to 7D), then give them 2D of auto-fire, split according to ZzaphodD's rules, so that auto-fire can only be used to augment accuracy at long range, not damage.


While that makes the weapons deadlier, it makes it worse to use as the to hit is gonna be lower effectively.

crmcneill wrote:
Yeah, I don't know what WEG was thinking here (or with the secondary guns on the AT-AT either). It inflicts less damage, yet is not more accurate than the main guns. In both cases, I give the secondary blasters on the walkers the same stats as the main guns, but make them speeder-scale instead. This makes them a lot more useful for engaging smaller, more maneuverable targets (especially with the 4D-scale step I used between Walker and Speeder).


Exactly. Watching the AT-ST in action on endor we saw only really, the chin turret weapon get used, never the side blaster OR missile launcher. So why have them? Same at Hoth.

crmcneill wrote:
Might as well make it character-scale and give the grenades a blast radius.


That is an issue with many vehicles.. Some even have Concussion grenade launchers which ONLy list a damage value, no grenade blast radius...

crmcneill wrote:
I move the Chariot up to Walker-Scale, so that solves that problem. Another issue with the Chariot is that the blaster can only fire in the forward arc. Considering it's a command vehicle that may need to lay down suppressing fire while it beats a hasy retreat, I would think it should be a turret-mounted weapons.


Which to me was bad editing. How the heck should a command vehicle be speeder scale? And that weapon looks to me like its on a turret.

crmcneill wrote:
Again, the 4D scale step helps, so the blaster cannon on the snowspeeders get bumped to 8D+2 character scale. For a while I was considering putting snowspeeders in the Walker-Scale category, but they are just too small. Personally, I think the tail gun on the snow speeder should be some form of repeating blaster as well, not just a power harpoon gun. It might also be cool to equip them with Finbat missiles so that they can actually have a chance against Walkers...


I like them being speeder scale, as it gives reasons later they switched to using fighters against walkers rather than kept on using these vehicles... And from what i saw, the snow speeder seemed more of a fast aerial scout than a true combat vehicle.

crmcneill wrote:
Well, this rule could easily apply. The bomber's concussion missiles would be area effect weapons, so just run through the rules as described above to generate the hit/miss and damage reduction on a specific character as the target. In the case of multiple characters, use the grenade scatter rules to generate direction and distance by which the shot deviated, and that will give you some idea as to how close or far away other characters might be.


If you look both here and on the holonet, i have asked in the past wat a good blast radius i atmosphere should be for proton torpeedos, proton bombs etc... For that reason. To allow for them to be used IN anti troop/ground vehicle attacks..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
While that makes the weapons deadlier, it makes it worse to use as the to hit is gonna be lower effectively.


Please clarify your statement here; I'm not sure what you mean...

Quote:
Watching the AT-ST in action on endor we saw only really, the chin turret weapon get used, never the side blaster OR missile launcher. So why have them? Same at Hoth.


Actually, there is some evidence that both were used. I recall one scene on Endor where an AT-ST is seen in a lateral view and appears to be firing the side blaster. I'm watching football at the moment, so I can't pop in ROTJ and confirm it, but I'm pretty confident I saw it. As far as the grenades, recall the scene where the one Ewok gets killed and the other Ewok has a little bit of screen time mourning him. As the two were running, there were two explosions off to their left that got progressively closer until one went off right at their feet. No laser blasts were visible proceeding the explosions, so it is my opinion that the blasts were caused by the concussion grenade launcher.


Quote:
How the heck should a command vehicle be speeder scale? And that weapon looks to me like its on a turret.


Are we talking about the same vehicle? I can't recall even seeing a cannon mount on a Chariot. The one on the Mobile Command Base is an obvious turret, but the stats reflect that.


Quote:
I like them being speeder scale, as it gives reasons later they switched to using fighters against walkers rather than kept on using these vehicles... And from what i saw, the snow speeder seemed more of a fast aerial scout than a true combat vehicle.


That was my reasoning as well.
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:22 pm; edited 2 times in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
If you look both here and on the holonet, i have asked in the past wat a good blast radius i atmosphere should be for proton torpeedos, proton bombs etc... For that reason. To allow for them to be used IN anti troop/ground vehicle attacks..


Yeah, I'm following that one on the Holonet as well, but since you are looking for alternate opinions and I'm pretty central to the argument here, nothing I have to say over there would broaden the discussion.

If you're looking for a static blast radius generation rule, I would suggest the following:
    1) Take the Damage rating of the weapon, add the scale modifier, and convert it to pips. This gives you a basic number to help generate percentages.

    2) Apply the pip total from #1 to the following modifiers:
      Area: 100% / 80% / 60% / 40% (the same percentages of total damage found in the Frag grenade stats).
      Point: 100% / 80% / 50% / 20% (percentages derived from thermal detonators, representing more focused power, but sharper drop off in damage potential as the distance from ground zero increases).

    3) Convert the pips back into D, shifting scale where appropriate, to generate damage ratings per blast radius.

    4) Generate the maximum blast radius using the following modifiers, with the modified pip value as the base:
      Speeder-Scale: x 1/4
      Walker-Scale: x 1/2
      Starfighter-Scale: x 1/2
      Capital- Scale: x10
      Area Effect: x2

    5) Generate the blast radius steps using the following percentages: 10%-25%/50%/100%. Round up to nearest whole number
So, in your example of a TIE Bomber, it's Concussion Missiles would convert as follows:
    1) Damage 9D + 6D Scale modifier = 15D. 15 x 3 = 45 pips

    2) It's an Area Effect Weapon, so 45 x 100% = 45, x80% = 36, x60% = 27, and x 40% = 18

    3) 45 / 36 / 27 / 18 converts to 15D /12D / 9D / 6D Character-Scale damage.

    4) Apply the modifiers for Starfighter (x1/2) and Area Effect Weapon (x2) to the base of 45, for a maximum blast radius of 45 meters.

    5) Applying the max of 45 to the percentage modifiers gives you 5-12/23/45.
The result is a Concussion Missile that inflicts 9D / 6D / 3D / Walker-2D, with a blast radius of 5-12/23/45. Now you just need a house rule to decide how far and in what direction the grenade deviates.

This method is more traditional, but it requires a lot more in-game number crunching than the method I suggested above.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Please clarify your statement here; I'm not sure what you mean...


With your upping damage from cha-speeder, speeder-walker by 4d vice 2d, it does give weapons on speeders more punch, BUT also then makes it harder to HIT someone cause of the 4d scale difference.

crmcneill wrote:
Actually, there is some evidence that both were used. I recall one scene on Endor where an AT-ST is seen in a lateral view and appears to be firing the side blaster. I'm watching football at the moment, so I can't pop in ROTJ and confirm it, but I'm pretty confident I saw it. As far as the grenades, recall the scene where the one Ewok gets killed and the other Ewok has a little bit of screen time mourning him. As the two were running, there were two explosions off to their left that got progressively closer until one went off right at their feet. No laser blasts were visible proceeding the explosions, so it is my opinion that the blasts were caused by the concussion grenade launcher.


Possible, yes. But its something we have to extrapolate. unlike seeing the AT-AT's side mounted guns fire in the Hoth battle.

crmcneill wrote:
Are we talking about the same vehicle? I can't recall even seeing a cannon mount on a Chariot. The one on the Mobile Command Base is an obvious turret, but the stats reflect that.


Yes.. The picture in the Vehicle guide makes it look like a turret to me, similar to the 50 cal mount on Humvees.

crmcneill wrote:
The result is a Concussion Missile that inflicts 9D / 6D / 3D / Walker-2D, with a blast radius of 5-12/23/45. Now you just need a house rule to decide how far and in what direction the grenade deviates.


Interesting.
What of Proton bombs?

Also would a flat miss be a miss, or just knocking it down by a blast zone or two?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
With your upping damage from cha-speeder, speeder-walker by 4d vice 2d, it does give weapons on speeders more punch, BUT also then makes it harder to HIT someone cause of the 4d scale difference.


True, but it also makes the distinction between the primary (walker-scale) and secondary (speeder-scale) weapons on Walkers more important. In the case of the AT-ST, I have made Walker and Starfighter essentially the same scale, so the main cannon is now a feasible threat against starfighters. Since this also makes it more difficult to make a precision shot at a smaller scale target, the side cannon (switched to Speeder-Scale) becomes more useful, along with the concussion grenade launcher (switched to character-scale, and with stats modified so that it has a blast radius). Also, the blast radius rules I've proposed off-set some of that difficulty by making it possible for the AT-ST's main cannon to still potentially inflict damage off of a near miss.


Quote:
Possible, yes. But its something we have to extrapolate. unlike seeing the AT-AT's side mounted guns fire in the Hoth battle.


True. Still, the extrapolated evidence is sufficient for me to match up with the stats. They just need to be tweaked a little.


crmcneill wrote:
The picture in the Vehicle guide makes it look like a turret to me, similar to the 50 cal mount on Humvees.


Just to be clear, this is the Chariot:


This, which appears next to the Chariot Stats in the Vehicle Guide, is called the Armored Repulsorlift Transport:



crmcneill wrote:
Interesting.
What of Proton bombs?


Depends what stats you use for the bombs. Take the base damage and run it through the steps I laid out, and that will get you a blast radius and damage reduction by blast radius.


Quote:
Also would a flat miss be a miss, or just knocking it down by a blast zone or two?


Again, that would depend on how you want to rule the miss = scatter for a proton bomb, and how much guidance vs. dumb bomb comes into play.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rats.. I put the top pic with the transport, and the bottom one with the chariot..
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over the last couple of days I've read all five pages of this with interest. I think crmcneill's solution very much works (and makes logical sense), though it's a bit more complex than I would prefer.

One note for Esoomian: So why is an AT-AT shooting at stormtroopers? (from your example) Wink

The game does seem to need something to cover this, but I think it's also worth noting that these 'blast effects' don't seem to happen to important people from the story. In other words, they happen to people like that Rebel Trooper being hit by the AT-AT, but he was merely an NPC.

I don't know about many of you, but in the many years I've run this game I haven't done many large-scale battles. My stories have tended to be more character driven and smaller in scale, with groups of 4-8 heroes running around dodging blaster fire. I have, however, gotten the chance to play in some large-scale stuff (we have an annual Con where the GM has huge, epic fleet-scale battles), but in those the GM has sometimes over a dozen players, and he quickly and smoothly narrates what happens to the NPCs. The battles are so large and have so many participants that it would take forever to get into the minutia of what happens with each attack, and he often does large groups (entire groups or even squadrons) with a single roll. I like how he's done this, and it plays very cinematic and the way the RAW encourage one to. Simply pick a TN and have the players roll.

So again, I really like the accurate and realistic portrayal that you've done for this, cr. In fact, I'd love to see a copy of all of your house rules (if you've compiled them all). What you've done with the Walkers and other vehicles sounds well worth investigating.

For this particular rule, I think I'll print it out and keep it, but I'm not sure I'd use it that often, if only because I think it would slow down play as I would sit down to crunch numbers with a calculator. I already have a large group (six PCs), so I try to keep things moving pretty briskly most of the time, attempting to capture that "Star Wars" feel.

I kind of wish there was a simpler way of doing this, perhaps something like - when dealing with a blast that the GM feels should be explosive - adding 1D damage to someone who is Medium range away, +2D to Short, and +3 to Point Blank, even on a miss, as long as the value to hit was really close to the TN?
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd also love to see some of those optional damage rules that have been mentioned on this thread a couple of times.

I've tended to (occasionally, especially when appropriate for the story) allow in an extra 1D damage, when somebody makes an extraordinary roll for a hit.

I'd very much like to see what others have come up with for this.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad you like what I've come up with, and I agree that it is a bit complex. When making house rules, the biggest challenge is finding the proper balance between realism and simplicity. It isn't always possible to do both. I suppose the simplest way to house rule this would be to apply the degree of miss failure as a penalty to the damage roll (I.e. a larger scale weapon misses a smaller scale target by 15 points, and thus suffers a -2D penalty to the damage), but at that point, we might as well just not bother with scale modifiers at all.

With regards to things like this only happening to "extras", your observation is correct. The in-game effect is created by a combination of factors. Firstly, player characters tend to be exceptional beings who are well above the galactic "average", and this is reflected in their increased dice values (in skills, attributes and equipment). Secondly, PC's have the added advantage of being able to spend Force Points and Character Points to soak damage rolls. While a minor NPC with no FPs and 1-3 CPs may be forced to accept a poor result when rolling the dice, a player character can spend points and "miraculously" escape death.

The optional damage rules can be found in Ruled of Engagement: The SpecForce Handbook in the Weapons Chapter. Short version: you may increase your weapon's damage roll based on the value of your To Hit roll, on anywhere from a 1-to-1 up to a 1-to-5 ratio (for example, if using the 1-to-5 ratio, if you beat the To Hit difficulty by 15 points, you would receive a +3 bonus to the weapon's damage roll).

As for my house rules? They are splattered all over this forum, and even I have lost track of them. They range from half-baked and vague concepts to full-fledged rules and stats. If you check my Rancor Pit profile, there is a link which will generate a list of every post I've ever made on this forum, but considering I'm currently at 3,600 and change, it would likely be a daunting task. If you find something that strikes your fancy, I will be more than willing to discuss it with you.

P.S. with regards to my work with Walkers and other vehicle stats, what exactly did you have in mind?

EDIT: On the example in paragraph one, I meant a penalty of -15 to damage, not -2D. Basically, damage would be reduced on a 1-to-1 ratio based on how badly the shot missed. I must've been thinking about something completely different when I wrote 2D.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DougRed4 wrote:

I don't know about many of you, but in the many years I've run this game I haven't done many large-scale battles.


That is a good point DR, there are rarely large scale battles where things like floating fortresses, AT-ATs etc are shooting at pcs, but i have seen (and gmed for) 3 such incidences at conventions.

DougRed4 wrote:
I'd also love to see some of those optional damage rules that have been mentioned on this thread a couple of times.

I've tended to (occasionally, especially when appropriate for the story) allow in an extra 1D damage, when somebody makes an extraordinary roll for a hit.

I'd very much like to see what others have come up with for this.


They are out of a book called Rules of engagement.
The 3 options are
Skill damage bonus. When a character hits, add the difference between the needed to hit number and the number rolled to damage. EG Stormie #2 shoots PC Flava glaive getting 15 to hit but only needed a 11. He adds 4 to what ever damage he rolls.
Skill damage bonus version 2. Similar to #1 but where the DM finds #1 too deadly, he changes it to +1 to damage for every 3-5 over the to hit needed.
Dice pooling. Basically this is similar to some elses suggestion here where you sacrifice to hit dice (when you know you can't miss, or have lots of dice to shoot with), to add dice to damage.

Most dms i know of who DO use one of the additional rules use either variant 2 (and do it at 3-1 ratio for to hit to damage adding), OR go with dice pooling but where each 2 dice you give up gives you 1d to add to damage with a max cap of 1/2 the weapons base damage.
EG you can sacrifice 4d to hit to gain 2d to damage for a base blaster pistol. Or 4d+4 to gain 2d+2 for a blaster rifle/heavy pistol. Though those who DO use it are split almost evenly between those who ONLY apply it to the players and those who apply it to all, not just the players.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for explaining the damage options, guys. I'm pretty sure I have the SpecForces book, though I've hardly looked through it (will have to go double-check).

@crmc: As regards the vehicle stuff, I was just referencing the posts regarding Walkers and Chariots earlier in this thread, where it seemed you had things really well defined.

For years I had my own house rules scattered in various places, some were so ancient I only had old, typed copies (before the age of computers). I finally compiled them all and put them into a single document (around 30 pages), and it's really helpful (though there are now 4 versions, and I need to do a 5th). That's for V&V, the game I've run a continuous campaign in for 22 years (and that I've been playing for 30).

I did a much smaller one (about 5-6 pages) for our Star Trek game (Decipher's CODA version) and I might end up doing the same for Star Wars eventually. It's just easier to reference everything, both for the GM and the players, if it's all compiled in a single place (especially helpful once a glossary or index is added). It's one of those things that - after it's done - you think "why didn't I do that a long time earlier?" Smile
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
I suppose the simplest way to house rule this would be to apply the degree of miss failure as a penalty to the damage roll (I.e. a larger scale weapon misses a smaller scale target by 15 points, and thus suffers a -2D penalty to the damage), but at that point, we might as well just not bother with scale modifiers at all.


In retrospect, I almost wonder if this would actually be the best approach. Rather than running through the whole complex chart system, the GM would decide (based on the circumstances) as to whether or not near-miss rules would apply, and if so, to what degree. In essence, the GM could select the degree to which scale modifiers applied based on the circumstances.

Thoughts?
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Fallon Kell
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I treat large laser cannon blasts like grenades when firing on smaller targets. I choose range-damage brackets that make sense and use grenade scatter to determine where you hit.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallon Kell wrote:
I treat large laser cannon blasts like grenades when firing on smaller targets. I choose range-damage brackets that make sense and use grenade scatter to determine where you hit.


Too seat-of-the-pants for me. I like having some sort of conversion guidelines to work with, but most of what I've proposed so far on this topic has proven to be a bit too unwieldy to work well in a game without messing up pacing. Still a work in progress...
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