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jmanski
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 Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:37 am Post subject: |
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I think you'd just use a more focused TK. Isn't there a cadence somewhere about removing the oxygen from a sealed container?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | I think you'd just use a more focused TK. Isn't there a cadence somewhere about removing the oxygen from a sealed container? |
Yes, in Fragments of the Rim, pages 74-75. Specifically, the Jedi uses TK to create a vacuum by moving all the air out of a bottle while the top is open, then allowing only oxygen molecules to reenter the bottle. The thing of it is that, although the required power is Telekinesis, the cadence requires a Difficult Sense roll to specifically identify the oxygen molecules and allow them back into the bottle. For me, the rule of thumb is, if you can't perceive what you are trying to manipulate with TK using your normal physical senses (whether its too small or its inside something else), then you need a Sense roll to perceive it. Since the TK RAW has no rules for inflicting damage on an object, and TK Kill already has rules in place to damage an object on the inside while leaving the exterior unharmed (and since I already have my Willpower rule in place to regulate lethal use of TK Kill), I would just make a new rule allowing TK Kill to be used on inanimate objects and droids in the sense that an object is damaged internally while appearing externally unchanged. The caveat being that the object being damaged has to have some sort of internal part that can be attacked to render the object useless, so while a rock would be immune to TK Kill, a chair could have its bolts snapped so that it appears fine, but collapses when someone sits on it.
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jmanski
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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How's about a two-stage TK for damaging inanimate objects? First roll is to hold it, the second is to damage it. So you'd use Alter (with MAPs, of course) for damage.
I just don't see why one would need to use Sense and Control on an inanimate object.
Of course, we could make a new power to cover it... 
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| jmanski wrote: | | How's about a two-stage TK for damaging inanimate objects? First roll is to hold it, the second is to damage it. So you'd use Alter (with MAPs, of course) for damage. |
I could see that if the goal was to grab something firmly and crush it. In fact, rather than MAPs, you could just bump the Alter difficulty by one level.
| Quote: | | I just don't see why one would need to use Sense and Control on an inanimate object. |
Again, the benchmark is, if you are trying to affect an object that you can't perceive with your own normal senses (either because it is too small, too far away, or located out of sight or behind concealment), you need to have an alternate means of perception, in the form of the Sense roll, which grants you awareness of the specific object/thing/part you are trying to manipulate. Even though you can't see it,hear it, smell it, touch it or taste it, you can Sense it through the Force.
As for Control, it's generally applied too more potent powers that require the Force User to either draw on the Force present in themselves, or to exercise greater control than usual over themselves in order to achieve the desired result. In this case, if you wanted to sense the internal workings of an object while simultaneously manipulating those internal workings in a manner intended to cause damage, it would require a great deal of focus and concentration through the Force. To represent that degree of personal focus, the character must make a Control roll.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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vanir
Jedi
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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My own sensibilities would be using control/alter for a new power like crush or manipulate object.
Control roll, easy to crush an inanimate object, modified by proximity. To reverse the polarities in a power consol remotely heroic + proximity.
Alter roll moderate. Does up to alter dice damage (PC chooses amount of alter dice in damage).
Neutral power, can warrant a DSP under certain conditions (such as destroying the droid that is trying to save the princess from a garbage disposal, or adjusting simple garbage disposal power converters to crush a princess quicker).
If you could use the power on living beings, or used it to remotely view objects to mess around with them then I'd add the sense roll, in the latter case it becomes a much more complicated power not unlike create doppleganger which is a dark side power due to it being rather unnatural and extreme (ie. potentially affecting game balance, which I think is WEG reasoning on certain powers being DSP powers: game balance rather than strict warrant).
When you think about it, though it would be a control/sense/alter to remotely rewire a computer to visualise the workings, it's not very far removed from creating a doppleganger at lower difficulties. Is throwing a ghost of yourself around the place not overstepping the Jedi philosophy that Jedi should not use the Force to become unnatural or separated from the natural universe? Otherwise why bother with lightsabres, why don't good Jedi use Force Lightning and Telekinesis variations for regular battle instead, just rely on the Force for everything? Might as well just be wizard kings and never leave the house, just send Force Storms wherever there is trouble, who needs lightsabres and exhaustive physical action or menial labour? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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| vanir wrote: | | Neutral power, can warrant a DSP under certain conditions (such as destroying the droid that is trying to save the princess from a garbage disposal, or adjusting simple garbage disposal power converters to crush a princess quicker). |
Personally, I'd throw in my Willpower rule; the character is using the Force for destructive purposes, regardless of the fact that he is not destroying a living thing. There is the potential for his negative emotions to come to the fore and take control, so he needs to be wary of that.
| Quote: | | If you could use the power on living beings, or used it to remotely view objects to mess around with them then I'd add the sense roll |
Again, if this power was just used to grab a being (who is in line of sight) and crush them, it would not need the Sense roll. The RAW for TK as an Alter-only power specifies that it can only be used line of sight, so the Sense roll would only be needed if the task in question was beyond the scope of the character's normal senses.
| Quote: | | in the latter case it becomes a much more complicated power not unlike create doppleganger which is a dark side power due to it being rather unnatural and extreme (ie. potentially affecting game balance, which I think is WEG reasoning on certain powers being DSP powers: game balance rather than strict warrant). |
My issues with that approach generally arise from my realization that, in their attempts to provide game balance, they have created a world that differs from the canon SWU in various ways, both subtle and obvious. I would prefer if they made these powers available to lightside characters, but put more subtle barriers in place, such as very high difficulty levels, or the potential for Dark Side abuse, as opposed to certainty. In D&D, for instance, there are spells that are hugely unbalancing, yet are still accessible to player characters. This is accomplished by putting them far beyond the reach of beginning and intermediate characters, requiring the characters to work and work and work before they can reach the point where they have access to it.
| Quote: | | When you think about it, though it would be a control/sense/alter to remotely rewire a computer to visualise the workings, it's not very far removed from creating a doppleganger at lower difficulties. Is throwing a ghost of yourself around the place not overstepping the Jedi philosophy that Jedi should not use the Force to become unnatural or separated from the natural universe? Otherwise why bother with lightsabres, why don't good Jedi use Force Lightning and Telekinesis variations for regular battle instead, just rely on the Force for everything? Might as well just be wizard kings and never leave the house, just send Force Storms wherever there is trouble, who needs lightsabres and exhaustive physical action or menial labour? |
My take on this has a couple different points. With regards to the potential for powers to overstep the ethical boundaries of Jedi philosophy, my take is that certain powers are most definitely off limits (Drain Life, Bolt of Hatred, Force Storm and other obvious corruptions of the Force and willful use of the Dark Side). Other powers, such as Electronic Manipulation and TK Kill, exist more in a grey area (at least how I've rewritten them). It's not that they no longer have an inherent danger of falling to darkness included in their use; its more that the Jedi may use the powers carefully and with great restraint, and ONLY after he has first mastered himself (in the form of the Willpower rule). IMO, something like Doppelganger would be similar. What are you using it for, and how often? I'm not going to posit an example, as examples can be (and have been) dissected and analyzed for ethical options ad nauseum on this forum and others, and hindsight is always 20/20. In a combat situation, however, a Jedi may not have time to think of other alternatives, and might consider using Doppelganger to distract a bounty hunter while he and his comrades escape with the Rebel spy. Or to use Electronic Manipulation to wipe the circuitry on a bomb detonator before it explodes and collapses a building, killing thousands. In either circumstance (IMO), a Jedi would consider it to be the greater crime not to act, as opposed to dithering indecisively while innocents are threatened. There will be time for self-reflection later on, and the Jedi should be open to objective criticism and use it as a learning experience, but to be in the moment and fail to act to save others because he is worried about himself would also be the antithesis of Jedi philosophy.
My second point is a part of a project I have been considering for some time: a re-imagining of D6 Force rules. One major component is the idea of practical applications for disturbances in the Force.. While this rule is still under development, the general points are:
1) Using the Force disturbs it, and the greater the use, the greater the disturbance.
2) Disturbances in the Force actually increase the difficulty of certain powers, especially Sense related, as the ripples and distortions cause by disturbances in the Force disrupt a Force user's ability to Sense his surroundings.
3) As such, out of respect for the Force, Jedi make a point of using the Force as little as possible. I actually award extra CP to Jedi characters who find subtle ways to use the Force in less disruptive fashion.
4) Sith, on the other hand, with their focus on themselves, care little for the disruptions they cause, believing that the power of the Dark Side will overcome any disruption caused by massive overuse of the Force. While this holds true for a time, the disruptions have a tendency to block or distort a Sith's perception of the future, either keeping them from seeing the future (and breeding paranoia) or leading them to see what they wish to see (resulting in misplaced overconfidence).
5) In game terms (as described in the above link), the more a Jedi uses the Force, the greater a disturbance in the Force he produces, which in turn adds to the difficulty of his Sense powers. Since he is the source of the disturbance, he can't leave and move away from the disturbance, he can only lay low and use his powers as little as possible until the disturbance fades
6) In addition, in the Classic Era, when the Empire is hunting Jedi, the degree of disturbance the Jedi creates will also affect the degree of Imperial response sent to deal with the Jedi.
The end result is that, while the Jedi is more than capable of performing powerful acts through the Force, he chooses not to unless he absolutely has to, for both ethical and practical reasons. It creates quite a conundrum for the smart Jedi player (the dumb Jedi Player very quickly attracts an Imperial response and dies spectacularly, or his character falls to the Dark Side and becomes an NPC).
A final thought is that, in that moment, a Jedi would trust in the Force to guide his actions, not flip through a mental file-cabinet for options, furiously selecting and discarding options as to the best course to take. We, however, as players running Jedi characters, have no such guidance. It would be grossly unfair of a GM to sit silently, providing his players with no options or advice in this situation, then punish them for acting on limited information. If a Jedi player character sees no options apart from using a dangerous power in a high-stress situation, a share of the blame must fall on the person who didn't provide them with options in the first place...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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vanir
Jedi
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Can't fault your reasoning here. Sounds good, especially with your further development of the nature of the Force in house rules. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | cheshire wrote: | | Such as a chair, computer, or blast door? I can't imagine TKK being used on a door, as you're not killing anything. Would would be the advantage of trying to use TKK over TK? |
I dont follow?
I would assume that one would use TK when affecting non-living things (including droids). Perhaps one would have to use two TK actions (Squeezing something together with a 1 ton pressure from each side for example). |
There are some interesting similarities, though. If you wanted to smash a chair, a computer or door to pieces, or crush it into a little ball, I could see TK being the proper power (or at least some derivative thereof). But what if you simply wanted to destroy the internal workings of a door lock while leaving the rest of the door unharmed? What if you wanted to crush a computer's hard drive while leaving the exterior of the computer untouched? Practically speaking, TK Kill seems a better fit for precise, yet effective damage... |
Well, as TK is 'line of sight' that wont work of course. Other than that TK is a very powerful power allready...
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Well, as TK is 'line of sight' that wont work of course. |
Exactly my point. If you wish to damage the interior of an object while leaving the exterior unharmed, TK will not work. You would need either TK Kill or some modification thereof to accomplish that.
| Quote: | | Other than that TK is a very powerful power allready... |
Not for combat purposes. Per the RAW, you can't use TK as a reaction skill and you can't use it to damage a living being without getting a DSP. If you were to modify the rules for TK to include things like Force Push, then I would agree with you. TK is a very useful skill for a lot of reasons, but the straight description and rules in the RAW limit it in a variety of ways.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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