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garhkal
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 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:42 am Post subject: |
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But TK as it stands has no 'speed' modifier. So how would you apply that?
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | But TK as it stands has no 'speed' modifier. So how would you apply that? |
Using Okun's Razor - perhaps a method correlating the muzzle velocity of th bullet backwards against the speed chart conversion to get a die code difficulty modifier. I'd say doing it this way, consider that the bullet does nothing but full move (by the rulebook run at up to Move multiplied by 4, so use the (muzzle velocity*5)/4 for one move to get this value I'd say. Though this will yield really high values for the modifiers so I see it as just the basis to build a move modifier on. Perhaps use the lifting chart, but read Meters/s instead of Kg?
I think there was no accounting for speed as it was never considered it would be used this way. However, faster moving objects should be harder to focus on and require more skill I feel.
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Jachra
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| KageRyu wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | But TK as it stands has no 'speed' modifier. So how would you apply that? |
Using Okun's Razor - perhaps a method correlating the muzzle velocity of th bullet backwards against the speed chart conversion to get a die code difficulty modifier. I'd say doing it this way, consider that the bullet does nothing but full move (by the rulebook run at up to Move multiplied by 4, so use the (muzzle velocity*5)/4 for one move to get this value I'd say. Though this will yield really high values for the modifiers so I see it as just the basis to build a move modifier on. Perhaps use the lifting chart, but read Meters/s instead of Kg?
I think there was no accounting for speed as it was never considered it would be used this way. However, faster moving objects should be harder to focus on and require more skill I feel. |
This has occurred to me, the force = MA issue, but whenever the word 'muzzle velocity' enters into a RPG it's a recipe for disaster. MAYBE an additional difficulty modifier for general categories of object velocities (thrown, subsonic, supersonic, etc.), but actually asking players or GMs to figure out the exact muzzle velocity of a weapon is an unnecessary step that would slow down the game in actual play.
The force of a bullet from a handheld weapon is basically guaranteed to be low enough not to matter. The force of the recoil is basically equivalent to the force of the bullet (the latter just has been slightly slowed by resistance, if any, and has a much smaller cross section, which is where we get to the penetration part) and isn't that significant. Note that movies that show people flying back from being hit by bullets are playing make believe. Of course, blasters can sometimes send people flying back, but that's because a chunk of their flesh/armor is being superheated and blowing them back by sudden outgassing of expanded material.
tl;dr version, handheld weapons are going to be stopped easily by even marginal levels of TK skill.
As for heavier rounds, such as those fired from tanks and artillery, the force delivered is quite a bit more serious, and may take serious consideration.
(Also, Occam's Razor. Or Ockham's, but our ancestors were awful at being consistent with these things.)
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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I disagree that the muzzle velocity of a hand held weapon will be low enough.
But hows this for a quick n dirty chart.
1f/s - 100f/s +5
101f/s - 500f/s +10
501f/s-1000f/s +15
1001f/s-5000f/s +20
5001f/s-10000f/s +25
Add +5 per additional 5000f/s
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| upwards of 99% of firearms would be +20, while thrown weapons would be +5 or maybe +10. Done. |
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Jachra wrote: |
This has occurred to me, the force = MA issue, but whenever the word 'muzzle velocity' enters into a RPG it's a recipe for disaster. MAYBE an additional difficulty modifier for general categories of object velocities (thrown, subsonic, supersonic, etc.), but actually asking players or GMs to figure out the exact muzzle velocity of a weapon is an unnecessary step that would slow down the game in actual play. |
Agreed. I didn't mean to have the GM or players calculate Muzzle velocity, I have so many reference books with that sort of information, but often forget not everyone does. Yes, a speed categories would be a decent approach perhaps, just getting the right mix. I do feel there should be more of a difference from 0 to supersonic, such as perhaps SLow, Fast, Very Fast, subsonic, Supersonic, transonic, etc... and this would keep more in with move speeds for characters and vehicles to I feel, and yet not so dimish the power to be useless against bullets, but require a reasonable level of skill to be impressive.
| garhkal wrote: | I disagree that the muzzle velocity of a hand held weapon will be low enough.
But hows this for a quick n dirty chart.
1f/s - 100f/s +5
101f/s - 500f/s +10
501f/s-1000f/s +15
1001f/s-5000f/s +20
5001f/s-10000f/s +25
Add +5 per additional 5000f/s |
This coupled with the idead of defining movement classes I feel would work, perhaps not such a wide jump initially, but in keeping with the somewhat exponential difficulty in star wars, broader jumps later on. Possibly:
Stationary (0) +0
Slow (1-9m/s) +3
Cruise (10-20m/s) +5
Fast (21-40m/s) +8
Very Fast (41-100m/s) +10
Subsonic (101-340m/s) +15
Supersonic (343-1715) +20
Hypersonic (1716+) +25
High Hypersonic (3415m/s+) +30
This of course asumes the speed of sound as a constant and does not account for variations due to elevation, atmospheric pressure, etc...but I feel that is too much scientific minutia for the spirit and pulp feel of the D6 System.
Of course, I am also using much wider speed scales as I can see it coming up, in some game that uses this somewhere, where this power will want to be used to deflect missiles, rockets, possibly small aircraft...
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Jachra
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | I disagree that the muzzle velocity of a hand held weapon will be low enough.
But hows this for a quick n dirty chart.
1f/s - 100f/s +5
101f/s - 500f/s +10
501f/s-1000f/s +15
1001f/s-5000f/s +20
5001f/s-10000f/s +25
Add +5 per additional 5000f/s |
Understand that I'm not necessarily objecting to the idea, but this strikes me very much as a lot of interesting information that isn't actually of any practical use in the game. Are you suggesting that GMs and players become familiar enough with muzzle velocities that they can extrapolate them into a different galaxy of unfamiliar firearms?
Not to mention, you cannot reasonably extract projectile damage from muzzle velocity, as it is only one portion of several in calculating damage (just as a couple of examples, I would indicate the caliber and construction of the bullet. Explosive bullets are going to have damages well out of step with their velocity.)
Heck, look at the various types of projectile weapon and specialty ammunition. You have gyrojets, which start off with very minimal muzzle velocity and then accelerate to more appreciable speeds, you have flechettes, you have dart weapons... Bows and arrows, crossbows, railguns, atlatls, gungan catapults...
I'd be happy to incorporate a basic heuristic, not a physics problem.
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Last edited by Jachra on Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:33 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Jachra wrote: | | Understand that I'm not necessarily objecting to the idea, but this strikes me very much as a lot of interesting information that isn't actually of any practical use in the game. Are you suggesting that GMs and players become familiar enough with muzzle velocities that they can extrapolate them into a different galaxy of unfamiliar firearms? |
It was in response to my post about speed being a factor in deflecting objects with the force, and in a follow up post I used muzzle velocity as a factor...
| Quote: | | Not to mention, you cannot reasonably extract projectile damage from muzzle velocity, as it is only one portion of several in calculating damage (just as a couple of examples, I would indicate the caliber and construction of the bullet. Explosive bullets are going to have damages well out of step with their velocity.) |
Agreed, a lot of factors affect firearm damage, but for the purpose of using telekineses to deflect the projectile itself, it should not be the damage the weapon inflicts that is the factor, but the velocity of the object... that was the thought process.
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Jachra
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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You actually posted AFTER I'd hit reply, so I didn't see your post until after I'd already posted! 
Your chart is a lot more helpful, but it doesn't incorporate the mass of the projectile... then again, that's already included in Telekinesis I suppose.
I think it could do with a bit of refining, let me see..
Stationary is unnecessary, this is for attacks. If the JEDI is being thrown, then they have different relative velocities anyway. And this should operate on relative velocities anyway.
Slow (1-20m/s) +0
Fast (40-100m/s) +5
Subsonic (101-340m/s) +8
Supersonic (343-1715m/s) +10
Hypersonic (1716+) +20
High Hypersonic (3415m/s+) +30
There, less of a headache.
Okay, now, that's all well and good, but GMs still need to know when something is 200m/s or 5000m/s or whatnot.
EDIT: To clarify my comment about projectile damage, I mean to say that GMs have no easy way to determine the numbers above in many cases. You can't extract it from damage because damage incorporates many factors.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Jachra wrote: | | You actually posted AFTER I'd hit reply, so I didn't see your post until after I'd already posted! |
I was referring to a much early post I made about how I felt speed should affect difficulty.
| Quote: | | Your chart is a lot more helpful, but it doesn't incorporate the mass of the projectile... then again, that's already included in Telekinesis I suppose. |
Thank you, I was trying to incorporate mine, garhkal's, and your own ideas into it (speed classes with the speeds given). Yes, since weight is already covered, we were mainly discusing how to add coverage for speed to TK since there is no mention of it in the books. I feel it was an oversight, personally. I feel this discussion has also been very useful and helpful overall with ideas.
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Jachra
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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I think, then, a couple examples would do good for each level, then I can plug it into Telekinesis generally.
At least one example of an object (not a vehicle or person, we already know how fast those go) in each. I could even go with your larger chart, though I advocate for simplicity.
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Jachra wrote: | I think, then, a couple examples would do good for each level, then I can plug it into Telekinesis generally.
At least one example of an object (not a vehicle or person, we already know how fast those go) in each. I could even go with your larger chart, though I advocate for simplicity. |
Perhaps the larger chart for general TK with the higher difficulties, but your abridged chart for reactive defense, as an aspect of the power, with lower difficulties justified that the power is aimed at defense against such things? I think that would be a fair compromise.
I can get some examples in a little later.
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Jachra
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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That appears eminently sensible, yes.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Supersonic (343-1715m/s) +10 |
That's one heck of a large leap...
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KageRyu
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| Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Quote: | | Supersonic (343-1715m/s) +10 |
That's one heck of a large leap... |
yes. In my initial table I based it on the speed which is considered supersonic (343.2 m/s to 1715 m/s) and simply used Hypersonic (5x speed of sound or higher) as the next category and modifier. Was a resulted combination of trying to keep it simple by using existing speed terms where possible, and me being lazy.
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