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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Quote: | Combined Actions. Two or more characters can work
together to more effectively accomplish a single task: this
process is called combined actions.
Combined actions can be used for combat (several
stormtroopers shooting at a single character) or a situation
where several characters are working closely together (a
group of mechanics overhauling a busted landspeeder or
several Rebels working to build a rope bridge across a
canyon).
The characters must agree to combine actions. The only
other thing a combining character can do is roll reaction
skills (such as dodge, melee parry or brawling parry).
The character in the group with the highest command
skill (or Perception attribute) is the leader. He can only
command as many characters as he has command skill dice. |
The rules don't say that all characters must be taking the same action or even using the same skill. In fact in the example of building a rope bridge one would reasonably infer that different actions (some sort of TEC skill for construction, maybe melee combat for swinging an axe to chop down trees, maybe climbing or swimming for working on the bridge, lifting for carrying, etc.).
I don't see anything in the RAW that would exclude a spotter and a sniper from combining on the sniping. Of course combining may mean someone has to make a command roll (and possibly get a MAP). |
I bolded and underlined the part of the combined action rule that shows they all do the same (combat wise).
Then there is also this from the 2e base book (blue cover)
| Quote: | | Combined actions have limits.. A commander can only command as many troops as have weapons and have the target in the same range. Starship repair efforts are limited by the number of people who can get IN the ship and do hands-on work. Computer programming efforts to hack through a system are limited by the number of terminals that can be linked together. |
Note the common thread there? ALL of them have the people doing the same action. Whether shooting, repairing or otherwise.
| Quote: | Those are good suggestion, what sort of bonuses would you attribute to them, would you give a full 1D? They are both dealing with stabilizing the weapon, albeit in different ways, would the bonus stack in this case? I could see other tech performing a similar task, more expensive gear might use a form or repulsor or inertial compensatory to help support or stabilize the weapon too, could offer better support, but at the risk of more easily malfunctioning/getting damaged.
I might ask if they'd stack with the scope too, as it seems some of the aim assist and fire control entries include stabilization features as well. Probably a silly question, if someone add these items to their weapon, it would all be folded into a single entry, something like +2D bonus when aiming for a round before firing (+1D scope, +2 Bi-pod & +1 recoil suppressor).
I'm still stuck on stacking aiming (prepared action) and scopes, but I can certainly see the other side of the coin, so to speak. Question is, is receiving a +2D on attack rolls (more if you have the credits) worth only being able to make a single attack over two rounds, or is it too much? |
Those mostly offset penalties weapons have for recoil values (which i have added to all firearms i use, and have listed for many blasters (most are +5 to +10).
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | I bolded and underlined the part of the combined action rule that shows they all do the same (combat wise). |
You are confusing examples with rules. The parenthetical comments are example. To assume otherwise would mean that only stormtroopers can combine actions in combat which is obviously silly.
What the rules say is that
| Quote: | Two or more characters can work
together to more effectively accomplish a single task |
Note it says to accomplish a single task, it does not say that they must all use only a single skill.
| Quote: | | several Rebels working to build a rope bridge across a canyon |
Are you really trying to argue that the rebels are using the same exact skill to build a bridge? That seems highly unlikely to me.
If you define a sniping attack as a single task. I can see allowing the assistance of a spotter to help. That seems an acceptable interpretation of the rules by the GM. I also think disallowing it is also an acceptable interpretation. Despite the stormtrooper example, I just don't see the rule as unambiguous. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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Yes i am.. And bren, you seem to be like the same type of rules lawyer who is always trying to argue "since the rules don't explicitly dis allow it, i can therfore do it, even though the intent is no" Or "Since the rules give only 2 examples of what is allowed" only those 2 things are. This is what i expect of munchkins and powergamers.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Yes i am.. And bren, you seem to be like the same type of rules lawyer who is always trying to argue "since the rules don't explicitly dis allow it, i can therfore do it, even though the intent is no" Or "Since the rules give only 2 examples of what is allowed" only those 2 things are. This is what i expect of munchkins and powergamers. |
No need to engage in ad hominems. You claimed the example of stormtroopers shooting was a rule. I just followed it to the logical conclusion. You can't consistently argue that it is a rule for all combat situations and then argue that it doesn't apply to all combat situations. Pick one.
Regarding the intent of combined actions. I don't agree that the intent is not to allow multiple skills to combine for the same task. That's your interpretation. The example of building a bridge requires more than one skill - or do you really think all Rebels have a bridge building skill that they will apply?
You seem to argue for examples when you see them as supporting your point and against examples when they don't support your point.
Regarding rules and examples, let me just point out a prior discussion on quadding. There is no example, not a single one whatsoever to support the idea of quadding. There is no rule explaining how quadding should work. In fact the term quadding never, ever appears in a Star Wars rule or sourcebook. And the rules clearly state you can't make use of more than one Force Point in a single round. Yet you still insist quadding is allowed because it is not specifically excluded. If I wanted to cite an example of a rules interpretation that can make a character powerful, I could hardly do better than quadding - which allows a character to quadruple all his attributes and skills for a single round. Worried about damage, hey no problem your STR 3D character has STR 12. You can punch through a bulkhead door and set off thermodetonators in your hand. Cool!
And maybe you missed this: | Bren wrote: | | ...I also think disallowing it is also an acceptable interpretation. Despite the stormtrooper example, I just don't see the rule as unambiguous. |
Last edited by Bren on Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Orion
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 16 May 2008
Posts: 146
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Garhkal, I'm have to agree with Bren on this one, as the author chose to use the word task instead of skill and in doing so took the emphasis off of the specific skill or skills being used.
An example from the movies is in ESB where Han, Chewie, Leia, and 3PO are attempting to repair the Falcons hyperdrive. 3PO doesn't have any skill in repairing Space Transports but he can communicate with the Falcon's computers and use that information to direct the others. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Then why in the snipped i quoted from the blue cover rule book, does it list "for repairing, all must fit in to get their hands on"
or for computer programming, all must be able to link their computers up to hack in? If just assisting with other tasking (say reading out of a book, tech manual, or getting information from another source) was allowable, why did they put that in?
BUT since this is breaking this thread OFF the subject of sniping, i have made a separate thread.
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Quote: | | several Rebels working to build a rope bridge across a canyon |
Are you really trying to argue that the rebels are using the same exact skill to build a bridge? That seems highly unlikely to me.
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They are: Primitive Construction, or more likely, the Technical attribute.
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