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Lancil
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 74
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 Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| All emotion leads to the dark side. Love leads to fear. The fear of losing the one you love. Be it through death or some indiscretion. The drive to save the emotional and or physical relationship between you and your partner will drive you to the dark side. No mater how you try to dress it up. The kind of emotional attachment for marriage will eventually lead to the dark side. |
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Lancil wrote: | | All emotion leads to the dark side. Love leads to fear. The fear of losing the one you love. Be it through death or some indiscretion. The drive to save the emotional and or physical relationship between you and your partner will drive you to the dark side. No mater how you try to dress it up. The kind of emotional attachment for marriage will eventually lead to the dark side. |
I think Zarm's point was that it doesn't. Half of me wants to agree with him, while half of me wants to point out that calling love an emotion is like calling a Ferrari a way to keep four tires organized. It is much much more, and the emotion is just a side-effect.
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Zarm R'keeg
Commander
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 481
Location: PA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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I completely dissagree, and again, point to numerous examples that contradict this. The Skywalkers (Luke and Mara). The Solos (look at all of the 'attached-to' children that Han and Leia have lost without turning to the Dark Side). The Solusars. The Sunriders. Potentially Jaina Solo- with both Jag Fel AND Zekk, who loses her but doesn't turn dark (unless I've missed something in the recent EU). Anakin and Tahiri (despite the maniuplation plied to Tahiri, it took external manipulation exploiting her loss to make her dark, not any actual consequence of her love). On the counterbalancing side we have... what? Anakin Skywalker, maybe, although he clearly had plenty of other anger issues AND direct Sith manipulation skewing the results? 
(Actually, I think the number of Sith/Dark Side villains that we've seen married/in a relationship is relatively few or none, vs. plenty of married, staying-on-the-light Jedi in the OT and Kun/Quel Droma era.) In addition, it is impossible for Jedi to be emotinless (as well as making for a bad character) and the supression of emotion is not necessary for serenity or dispassion- the loss of all emotions would render a Jedi equally without passion OR compassion- not making for a very good Jedi!
Love does not lead to fear or posessiveness- it can be something that people unhealthily attach to a romance or loved one, but neither of those are intrinsic to caring for another person- they are their own entities.
Likewise, emotion does not lead to the dark side- selfish emotion or being controlled by it does. As the 2nd edition rules note, the Jedi code always includes acting for the good of others and not for selfishness or personal gain. In true love (as opposed to infatuation or lust) and marriage, selfless service and considering others first is the absolute goal and focus; the exact opposite of the Dark Side. Asking a sentient to live the life of a droid and ignore all emotion and connection (which I don't think that any Jedi actually did- I can't think of a Jedi without friendships, attachments of some sort- if only to a student or master- or any emotions, just those that pretended/claimed that they didn't)- now THAT might just drive them to the Dark Side.
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Lancil
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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Everything that you are saying about love is absolutely true, in a perfect world. In real life (and especially in the SW universe) love is "usually" a rough and sloppy thing full of twists and turns ups and downs, and even with the best intentions things can go very wrong very quickly. In real life 50% of marriages fail. Imagine the life of a Jedi. You think soldiers and doctors and fire men have rough schedules? Jedi are constantly being sent across the galaxy to do god knows what risking life and limb at the behest of the counsel.
I’m not really trying to argue with you about the ins and outs of marriage, but I’m just trying to be a little realistic about it. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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And i would hate to be the lawyers in a jedi divorce! 
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Zarm R'keeg
Commander
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 481
Location: PA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallon Kell wrote: | | Lancil wrote: | | All emotion leads to the dark side. Love leads to fear. The fear of losing the one you love. Be it through death or some indiscretion. The drive to save the emotional and or physical relationship between you and your partner will drive you to the dark side. No mater how you try to dress it up. The kind of emotional attachment for marriage will eventually lead to the dark side. |
I think Zarm's point was that it doesn't. Half of me wants to agree with him, while half of me wants to point out that calling love an emotion is like calling a Ferrari a way to keep four tires organized. It is much much more, and the emotion is just a side-effect. |
Very true, and an excellent point that I failed to consider.
Lancil- I do understand what you are saying (though the sent-back-and-forth-at-the-behest-of-the-council thing is hopefully optional; the Jedi at their best, I think have always been without the council, self-directing wanderers, writing wrongs, fixing disputes- like the 'mysterious stranger' of a western that rides into town, rights wrongs, and then rides off into the sunset for the next town)- I am just saying that I do not believe that attachment, emotion, or relationship lead automatically to the dark side- merely people's poor, selfish, or angry reactions to them- which could be said of many other things in life. True, marriages and relationships are inhabited by imperfect people, and those imperfect people can say and do hurtful things, angry things, even dark side things- but those things are not caused by their attachments or their relationships, but by their own personality flaws- which would find an excuse, relationship or not.
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Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Just because in real life 50% of marriage fail, that does not mean that they lead to the dark side. It could be that especially in modern day, people don't know how to pick suitable mates, and thus end up splitting up because they weren't a good match in the first place.
Often times couples get married before they even know who it is that they're marrying, and as such are blind sided by the fact that they're with a stranger or perhaps they don't even really like the person.
Some people attach extra expectations and baggage to their relationships once they're married, because they think that things are supposed to be a certain way once they make their vows. I personally believe that the only difference between a truly committed relationship and a marriage are the legalities that follow, nothing more. If you both partners are truly committed to being best friends, then the marriage will work through good times or bad. A committed relationship isn't any different except in title.
So, I would have to agree with Zarm on this one, that Jedi marriages do leave an opening in a Jedi's defenses, but just because you are somewhat vulnerable, that doesn't make it wrong. Jedi serve to protect life, so they are in a sense, attached anyway.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| Lancil wrote: | | ...of emotional attachment for marriage will eventually lead to the dark side. |
Except for when it doesn't.
Aside from the semi-humorous comment, I have three points to make about this subject.
(1) Lucas' point of view is clear. With rare exceptions, Jedi in the prequel period do not marry or form long term romantic attachments. We ignore Lucas’ POV, follow it (and ignore a chunk of the EU), or we need to somehow reconcile that POV with the EU and with our own campaign. Every group will need to decide for themselves how to reconcile the disparate points of view.
Personally I prefer to reconcile Lucas' view. So in our SWU the majority of Jedi in the prequel time frame do not form romantic attachments. But since in our campaign which started years before TPM we have backgrounds for two of the Jedi that include families - grandmother, mother, brother for one and mother and father for the other - we need to reconcile. So in the prequel period some romantic attachments were allowed and occurred, mostly for Jedi trained and based at the alternate training academies away from Coroscant.
(2) There is an argument to be made for the avoidance of attachments. Attachments are a source of danger (for all the reasons mentioned by Yoda and others) and maintaining attachments and balancing them with the obligations of a Jedi is a very difficult thing to do. As Qui Gonn said of the Jedi “It’s a hard life.” In our own campaign, the times that Jedi have gotten Dark Side Points are exactly those times when a loved one was threatened or in danger and the Jedi acted from fear and anger regarding that danger. So our personal gaming supports the prequel belief that attachments are a source of danger.
I think that the Jedi came to avoid attachments in the prequel time because it was the easier thing to do. But there is an unforeseen risk to avoidance of attachments. The risk of detachment – a risk that the Jedi become isolated from the cares and concerns of those they are supposed to serve and protect. By leading a life that is so different, that seeks to avoid the normal, human (and alien) attachments of life – close friends, romantic love, family – the Jedi become isolated and even in-human. The path of isolation leads to lack of caring for others and even a feeling of superiority to others – and this also leads to the Dark Side. We see this in the superiority and contempt for others that Palpatine and Dooku display in their unguarded moments.
(3) I don’t think there is a safe way to live as a Jedi. Jedi have both great power and great responsibility and balancing that power and that responsibility will always be a struggle. But I think that for a roleplaying game, Jedi PCs having to struggle with their attachments possibly leading them to the Dark Side makes for good drama in game. So why not allow it? |
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Lancil
Sub-Lieutenant
Joined: 16 Dec 2009
Posts: 74
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:11 am Post subject: |
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I'm not trying to say for any one to disallow a Jedi to marry. I'm just saying to be mindful of the consequences. In the prequel era the counsel will disallow it and probably remove any Jedi that goes against it, and any “force user” that forms these attachments should be closely monitored by the GM for when not if he commits a dark side act. (that is of course if the GM uses the relationship as part of his story. Becouse if he dosent none of this matters  ) |
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Volar the Healer
Jedi
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 664
Location: Arizona, USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:27 am Post subject: |
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50% of marriages do NOT fail. Marriage NEVER fails. Only people who don't know what marriage is fail.
Saying marriage fails is kinda like saying gravity fails. People who take drugs and try to fly off of buildings fall to their death. This is not a failure of gravity. It is a failure of people to understand gravity. The same is true of marriage.
Marriage, love, and sex (three different things!) are all more than just feelings, but feelings are part of them. While I can imagine living a 'low passion' life, I cannot imagine a Jedi's 'no passion life'. The best, most honorable, and noble men have gone beserk when their wives are harmed. This is the way it should be. Why we do things is just as important as what we do. Hunting down and killing a gang who murdered your wife is not evil. But, the Jedi seem to have no provision for 'rightous anger'. The real world does.
Perhaps, this is why Jedi are not allowed to marry. Your question can be answered by accepting the movies as fact and the extended universe as just stories that may or may not be true. There is no doubt marriage is not permitted to the Jedi in the movies.
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Zarm R'keeg
Commander
Joined: 14 Apr 2012
Posts: 481
Location: PA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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Bren, that analysis is... masterful. Well done, sir, well done indeed! 8)
Volar, likewise, on a different topic- seconded, thirded, and fourthed. (well, except for the 'ignoring the EU' part- that is one solution, yes, but I don't think anything that Lucas gave us in the Prequels is worth doing that... )
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