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Crimson_red
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 113
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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 Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Because the skill system is entirely set up for conscious use, yet there are certain situations in the films (such as Chewie not dodging the stormtrooper) where there is no obvious skill use involved, yet the character survives through sheer dumb luck. After all, what skill would Chewbacca have rolled in that circumstance? He certainly didn't Dodge, but the trooper missed twice at close range. |
As others have pointed out, CP and FP sort of fit the role of fate, considering that, I think I would rather add extra methods of applying these tools than to create a new attribute.
In other words, if you wanted to add a 'unconsious' element to the use of force points (and even character points) you could allow their use on things not directly related to the characters.In Chewie's example, he couldn't dodge so the GM allowed him to spend a FP to double the difficulty to hit him, or spend a couple character points to roll a like number of dice and add the result to the difficulty. It allows an exceptional occurance, but at a cost to the player, so they have to use it wisely... then again, the cost could be what defeats the purpose of what you're trying to achieve.
I think modifying the FP and CP rules can offer the necessary flexibility and desired results without introducing the questions and difficulties of creating a new attribute, by working within the established framework. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Because the skill system is entirely set up for conscious use, yet there are certain situations in the films (such as Chewie not dodging the stormtrooper) where there is no obvious skill use involved, yet the character survives through sheer dumb luck. After all, what skill would Chewbacca have rolled in that circumstance? He certainly didn't Dodge, but the trooper missed twice at close range. |
Part of the issue i feel CM, is that you see what happens in film as being what should also be in game, but unlike a game a film CAN have script imunity to make things more dramatic as there is no dice or other rules having to get consulted.. So that scene where Chewie is running (with 3P0 on his back) is scripted that he is to get away with no shots hitting him, as having one of the core characters to the films (chewie) as well as one of the 2 main narrators of the story get stopped/shot/captured would break the story.
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
Posts: 1846
Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | crmcneill wrote: | | After all, what skill would Chewbacca have rolled in that circumstance? He certainly didn't Dodge, but the trooper missed twice at close range. |
Technically the stormtroopers' attacks did 'hit' but Chewie made his soak roll. (He might even have spent a CP or two to avoid even being stunned.) George, the GM, then decided to describe the shots as misses or near misses rather than describing Chewie as blaster-proof.*
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Exactly.
| Bren wrote: |
* George often GMs like that. He would rather describe the scene in a way that he thinks is cinematic than strictly according to the rules. Sadly, though an otherwise good GM, George has kind of a lame sense of humor which really comes out with some of his NPCs. |
Meanwhile, Bren's sense of humor is occasionally dry, yet still impeccable!
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Downstrike
Lieutenant
Joined: 03 Mar 2012
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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I think I'll let my players make cold CP rolls. Roll to hit my player and explain that they didn't see it coming. Allow them to blow a few CP for a not full reactive roll. Thanks guys!
DS |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14359
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Could you explain that better please?
Are you saying that, even when not dodging, your pc's can spend CP to increase the base shooting target number?
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Downstrike
Lieutenant
Joined: 03 Mar 2012
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:07 am Post subject: |
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Yeah sort of
You have a dice pool to draw from with any saved up CP.
You have neg modifiers that lower say dodge down to zero [or less?].
You explain before the game that you are using a house rule.
Time comes, you turn to the player in question and allow them to burn CP not knowing what the roll is for. Could be dodge blaster or it could be dodge old newspaper.
I think this would be a nice effect for my game without adding another attr in there. Also could use it for academic skills the Characters don't have, but only in like a trivia sense that they read it somewhere once. Not that they did a thesis on it. |
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| Downstrike wrote: | | Could be dodge blaster or it could be dodge old newspaper. |
As a player, I wouldn't be too happy to find out that I just spent 5 CPs to dodge last year's April 1st edition of the Times. |
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: |
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What I don't like about the FATE attribute as a form of script immunity is that it is always active, and at a fixed value. What makes a game exciting is te risk. If Chewie has FATE 4D or some such then the player KNOWS that Chewie won't get hit that often by Stromtroopers, even if caught by surprise.
What I like about point pools is that they run out. Not only does that limit how much script immunity the PCs have, but it also builds up the drama and makes the players a bit more cautious as the points run low.
Yeah, A PC with 4D could roll bad and get hit, but that's just luck. There is no sense of tension about it, it just happens. With a point pool you tend to get the impression that your luck is running out. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Downstrike wrote: | Yeah sort of
You have a dice pool to draw from with any saved up CP.
You have neg modifiers that lower say dodge down to zero [or less?].
You explain before the game that you are using a house rule.
Time comes, you turn to the player in question and allow them to burn CP not knowing what the roll is for. Could be dodge blaster or it could be dodge old newspaper.
I think this would be a nice effect for my game without adding another attr in there. Also could use it for academic skills the Characters don't have, but only in like a trivia sense that they read it somewhere once. Not that they did a thesis on it. |
Would said pool reduce in game every time they spend CP?
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Bren
Vice Admiral
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| When you use a CP you lose the CP, so I would assume the answer is yes. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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So would the fate point cp be a separate pool than the advancement cp?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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An alternative would be to simply allow characters to spend CPs to inflict penalties against the rolls of other characters that directly affect them. For example, returning to the Chewbacca vs. the stormtrooper scenario, rather than a completely separate Fate attribute, Chewie could've taken a debilitating hit from the stormie, but the player controlling Chewie could choose to spend CPs at the standard rate (1 cp = 1D) which are then rolled, totaled and retroactively applied as a penalty to the trooper's shots. I actually prefer this method, as it has essentially the same effect as my original proposal and is less complicated to enact (as it is nothing more than an expansion of the existing rules for CPs).
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16406
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Part of the issue i feel CM, is that you see what happens in film as being what should also be in game, but unlike a game a film CAN have script imunity to make things more dramatic as there is no dice or other rules having to get consulted.. So that scene where Chewie is running (with 3P0 on his back) is scripted that he is to get away with no shots hitting him, as having one of the core characters to the films (chewie) as well as one of the 2 main narrators of the story get stopped/shot/captured would break the story. |
My stance is exactly that; if something occurs in the films, then it should also occur in the game, or at least be allowed for. If it is scripted in the film that certain characters (major ones) have script immunity in certain critical situations, then there should be a rule to reflect that in the game. At the risk of starting up an old and contentious argument, that is (IMO) the distinction between playing in the actual SWU, as opposed to playing in a universe that is almost Star Wars, but not quite. YMMV.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Downstrike
Lieutenant
Joined: 03 Mar 2012
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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Could go both ways.
If you wanted to set it up where it was a max pool dedicated to just getting lucky [because you have all gamblers and brash pilot types in your group], put a cap of 5 cp max in a seperate area from normal CP and give it a hefty refill rule like you can only put one cp back every other session. Something happens and they blow the whole load on one roll. As it regens [say up to 2D, not its max 5D] it can once again get dumped and put the player back to zero.
I have a like to give each player enough rope to hang the whole group at once so I would be more liberal on the matter, they earned the cp....burn it to your heart content. I would mostly do the red herring rolls when they go overboard with it. I don't have Capital ships targeting them as they walk down the street so if someone starts saving up cp to dump just as a reaction 12D at a time, I gotta have some fun with it.
And this is just me shooting from the hip. I haven't even mentioned it to any of my players. I think this is one of those house rules where the players should have alot of input on because they may simply not use it or want it.
I like the idea because I like my characters beat up but death means I've wasted time in a story with the players as heroes. You don't replace heroes in a story. That's lame. So something like Fate makes sense. I just don't like adding something as dramatic as another attr to the game. Just seems like too much work for something that a player will find a loophole for [and thats not to say this wouldn't have its loopholes].
hope my rambling made some sort of sense
Cheers
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Downstrike
Lieutenant
Joined: 03 Mar 2012
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | An alternative would be to simply allow characters to spend CPs to inflict penalties against the rolls of other characters that directly affect them. For example, returning to the Chewbacca vs. the stormtrooper scenario, rather than a completely separate Fate attribute, Chewie could've taken a debilitating hit from the stormie, but the player controlling Chewie could choose to spend CPs at the standard rate (1 cp = 1D) which are then rolled, totaled and retroactively applied as a penalty to the trooper's shots. I actually prefer this method, as it has essentially the same effect as my original proposal and is less complicated to enact (as it is nothing more than an expansion of the existing rules for CPs). |
that's good stuff too! |
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