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ZzaphodD Rear Admiral


Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Bren wrote: | ZzaphodD wrote: | I find FP:s / DSP:s problematic enough on their own, so would never combine them.. | ZzaphoD, by combining FP and DSP do you mean quadding (as described above) or something else? |
No, I mean quadding...
Given the rather drastic way FP:s/DSP:s enhance a character/npc on their own, I dont want to invite even more problems.. _________________ My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
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Bren Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:34 pm Post subject: |
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ZzaphodD - so you are covered by 'rule' (3) then.
garhkal wrote: | Dat about sums me up nicely.. BUT i also look at why they are quadding and what the NPC's write up has. | Thanks for comfirming I summarized the essentials correctly. I was trying to keep the description simple, but I accept that Darth Vader and Darth Weasel* may, in the same circumstances, use quadding differently.
* Where Darth Weasel is a genericly vicious but essentially cowardly Sith and Darth Vader is essentially not cowardly. |
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ZzaphodD Rear Admiral


Joined: 28 Nov 2009 Posts: 2426
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Bren wrote: | ZzaphodD - so you are covered by 'rule' (3) then.
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Yes. The Dark Sider would end up with two FPs in the same round. As you can only spend one FP each round he would be wise to use the temporary one. _________________ My Biggest Beard Retard award goes to: The Admiral of course.. |
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Grimace Captain


Joined: 11 Oct 2004 Posts: 729 Location: Montana; Big Sky Country
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Bren wrote: | What I am seeing so far is the following three 'rules' regarding Calling on the Dark Side and quadding.
...snip...
(2) Grimace only allows characters who have not yet turned to the Dark Side (which essentially means only PCs) to Call on the Dark Side and quad. He uses quadding as a means of tempting those characters to the Dark Side, but once the character turns (which is likely to happen very quickly if they make a habit of quadding) they lose the ability to quad when calling on the Dark Side. So for most NPCs, Calling on the Dark Side is only a way to get extra or "free" FPs to use immediately.
...snip...
garhkal and Grimace have I correctly presented how you use Calling on the Dark Side and quadding? |
You have correctly surmised how I do it with one correction. In the last sentence you said "...only a way to get extra or 'free' FPs to use immediately." Just remove the word immediately and you've got it.
If a Dark Sider wants to call on the dark side and doesn't want to use it immediately (for bad things, not just to save his bacon), then he suffers the two difficulty level increase for not wanting it to do evil things. This increases the chance that he could fail and then suffer degradation of attributes/skills due to the dark side consuming him.
But basically, it looks like you've correctly understood how I handle this in my games. |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14359 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Bren wrote: | ZzaphodD - so you are covered by 'rule' (3) then.
garhkal wrote: | Dat about sums me up nicely.. BUT i also look at why they are quadding and what the NPC's write up has. | Thanks for comfirming I summarized the essentials correctly. I was trying to keep the description simple, but I accept that Darth Vader and Darth Weasel* may, in the same circumstances, use quadding differently.
* Where Darth Weasel is a genericly vicious but essentially cowardly Sith and Darth Vader is essentially not cowardly. |
Hey, i only use darth ferretts.. weasles are only used repulsor salesmen!  _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Bren Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Grimace wrote: | But basically, it looks like you've correctly understood how I handle this in my games. | Thanks for clarifying. That alls seems consistent with your posts on the other thread and with what seems your central desire to have Callling Upon the Dark Side as a very powerful to provide a tempatation for those who have not turned and less immediately powerful (but more long term useful) for those who have already turned. |
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Fallon Kell Commodore


Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Posts: 1846 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: |
Hey, i only use darth ferretts.. weasles are only used repulsor salesmen!  |
Do you mean Darth Rat? Ferrets are a force for good. _________________ Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
Complete Starship Construction System |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14359 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:01 am Post subject: |
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Na/./ darth rats are used in the power plant, running the big wheels!  _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Fallon Kell Commodore


Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Posts: 1846 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:09 am Post subject: |
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You'd think they'd have the sense to just sit down and TK the big wheels... _________________ Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
Complete Starship Construction System |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14359 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Why expend the effort. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Bren Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | Why expend the effort. | Big wheels, small wheels...size matters not. |
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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This concept of quading is interesting.. But for me to consider using it I'd need to put some real thought into it and take some time to really understand it. Off the top of my head, it's just a rediculous "interpretation" of the rules. Though if the right risks are involved (for pcs and npcs alike) I could see myself allowing some form of it. |
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KageRyu Commodore


Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 1391 Location: Lost in the cracks
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Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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I've never allowed or used Quadding myself (except very early on when I didn't fully understand the game mechanics). To me, the rules are quite clear on only gaining the benefit of 1 force point at a time, and when using quadding it becomes clear why that rule exists as it quickly unbalances the games mechanics.
I have seen in similar discussion it mentioned, "then why allow for trusting to the darkside to gain a second or third FP in a round if it has not effect?" The answer is - "To feed those force powers that list under them the requirement to spend one or more force points simply to use the power (as are found in a few official D6 books such as Dark Empire)."
Dark Side Jedi are dangerous enough when I play them as it is (have yet to have a group actually kill one - they've managed to drive one or two off with great difficulty, but never killed one). Aside from an odd Cameo by Vader as a background element, the strongest a Dark Jedi I have ever introduced had Force Powers in the 4D to 6D range. _________________ "There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
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vanir Jedi

Joined: 11 May 2011 Posts: 793
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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I'm totally confused. If you spend a FP then call on the Dark Side you are spending a FP to call upon the Dark Side, ergo you get double the Control roll to call upon the Dark Side, if successful you get 1 DSP and 1 temporary-FP which you must use immediately.
Next round, you spend your Dark Side called temporary FP, you don't get to quad from the FP you used in the previous round...
edit, hang on I get it, this comes down to vastly different gaming styles. See what we do is start each round with "what are you going to do for the next five seconds" and you can multiple action and all the rest but your description of intent must be plausible before broken down into declared actions. The breakdown of action into skill rolls is really GM purview and not Player decision and the very good reason for this is immersion. Players should describe their actions as scenes rather than game mechanics.
So when a player after winning combat initiative and taking it says, "I'm going to do several actions: spend a force point, call on the dark side, spend that force point, attack 25 enemies, make a pot roast, design a new battlecruiser, solve universal peace, etc."
I may rule this could take a little longer than five seconds. In fact, using a FP, CP or calling upon the dark side is a singular mindset in which you approach a given round of combat, unless you've got more than one head, you can't do more than one of those at the same time. A combat round is only five seconds, and how you come at it is look, snap judgement, react. In the gaming environment you get to suspend time to consider the best actions to make, but overall it has to be a plausible and immersive decision/description once the action starts.
eg. in other words if you declare to centre yourself to call upon the Force, then draw up all your anger, hatred and darker emotions to call upon the dark side, I'm going to say that takes a few seconds to shift between the vastly different meditative techniques and your temporary FP for calling upon the dark side will be available the following round. In other words Player made a bad call, which would happen if you tried that immersively, he hesitated when he changed his mind about becoming one with the Force or drawing upon the dark side which are both very different but very devotional precepts, and wasted time to act.
Otherwise, if you could stack FP and DSP/FP bonuses, why can't you stack two FP bonuses using two, or CP and FP? I'd say you can't stack the temporary DSP/FP with a normal FP for precisely the same reasons.
Quadding sounds nonsensical to me. Rule players, not game players, it's an immersion killer that style of gaming. I realise experienced gamers tend towards rule playing and description by mechanic rather than immersive scenes because you just become that familiar with the gaming mechanics, but it's important to try to hold that freshness of gaming by scene descriptions during the action, and as player declarations.
I say this because it's come up in our group and continues to, we have to consciously remind ourselves to keep it in scenes and get out of description by mechanic. We consciously describe an immersive intent for a combat round as players, then the GM gives a breakdown of skill uses required, then players decide if they want to simplify to involve fewer actions at higher dice, or have surplus dice so might try something more complicated. With a bit of practise you can get this repore down fairly smartly so that it doesn't slow the action down too much, and the immersion value is very high. |
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KageRyu Commodore


Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 1391 Location: Lost in the cracks
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Posted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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vanir wrote: | So when a player after winning combat initiative and taking it says, "I'm going to do several actions: spend a force point, call on the dark side, spend that force point, attack 25 enemies, make a pot roast, design a new battlecruiser, solve universal peace, etc.". |
Oh, you were at the Gen-Con Star Wars session too? I remember that. That was a mighty fine pot roast the player group dined on after defeating the combined might of the entire planetside imperial garison and the Bounty Hunter's guild... mighty fine pot roast.
I agree with you about quadding. Although some allow it, the rules are very specific in that it should not happen. I have seen this sort of question (or questions similar regarding Quad stats due to FP use) many times over the years, and heard many reasons why some feel it is allowed, and see it as a loop hole or cheat - and really it is a misunderstanding of the RAW or a choice to disregard the RAW and it is game breaking in every way. It reminds me very much of a RIFTS game I played at a convention once with an allegedly senctioned GM who ruled that the Glitterboy's Boom Gun, since it was a Rail Gun, could fire in bursts using the Burst rules (Despite the RAW being specificly the opposite)...but couldn't fathom how in 1 action I killed one of the ancient dragons(think that was what it was) Those familiar with RIFTS or Palladium system will imediately see the problem in this.
If you wish to disregard the RAW on use of Force Points, including those gained from trusting to the Dark Side, so be it, it is your perogative as a GM, but there in lies the cause and answer to conundrums such as this. _________________ "There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
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