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Need some ideas
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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: What I typically do is this... Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Good point. One of the GMs in our ongoing campaign keeps heckling the heck out of me when i have baddies use force points to actually do more than just take damage.. And woe betide me if i have the baddie quad up.


In my mind quading up is a GM exploit. It seems like a rules oversight rather than something you're supposed to be able to do and it has the potential for multiple DSPs
I go farther. I think it is a rules misinterpretation.

That said, of course the bad guys who have FPs will use them (or CPs) at an appropriate time. Why would they not?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well my logic was looking at say several of our modules main force using baddies..
Some if they were to try and affect each pc with FL or some of the other 2 power combat skills, would require 15+d in each force skill to evne stand a chance of actually causing damage when you take MAPS into account.. and if the pc's all Force pointed, they would then need to be double again to keep that challenge/potential of damage.. hence my thought that they should be allowed to quad.
BUT so far only 2 of My own DJ have done so.. One does it when he has taken damage AND/OR gets seriously insulted that the dark side is pants compared to the light... pops up a new force power i have (see this thread
http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1131&highlight=flames+anger) hits everyone with it then runs... knowing he has at least 2 rounds head start to get out of dodge...
The other uses it ONLY to ensure her survival and escape.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Well my logic was looking at say several of our modules main force using baddies..
Some if they were to try and affect each pc with FL or some of the other 2 power combat skills, would require 15+d in each force skill to evne stand a chance of actually causing damage when you take MAPS into account..
So don't have them do that?

Seriously, that's your problem right there. MAPs means that fighting multiple opponents is a problem. Having one villain vs. 4 or more PCs will be tough for any villain who is not grossly overpowered. But allowing quadding against anything less than an attack directed at 4 or more PCs will annihilate a single PC and, based on the film, that's not what happens. One good guy (or two in the prequels) is able to more or less stand up to one bad guy - OB1 vs Darth in ANH, Luke vs Darth in ESB, Luke vs Darth in RotJ, even Luke vs Palpatine and Vader vs Palpatine in RotJ. In none of those cases is the good guy squashed like a bug (as he would be if the bad guy could roll 4xDice).

Seriously, don't the villains have lieutenants, henchman, and mooks/stormtroopers? There is no reason the big bad guy has to attack all the PCs by him/herself. Let the minions do some of the work against some of the PCs and let one or two good guys, rather than an entire basketball team of PCs, confront the bad guy.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Besides as discussed here quading up isn't a completely effective strategy against MAPs as MAPs are taken out before the doubling and redoubling is taken into account.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have re-read the 2e Revised rules and it doesn't seem to say one way or the other... And even reading both the Multiple action and FP area of the 2e base book shows nothing.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
Besides as discussed here quading up isn't a completely effective strategy against MAPs as MAPs are taken out before the doubling and redoubling is taken into account.
Esoomian, can you point to the section in the rules where it states that MAPs are subtracted before doubling for a FP?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
Esoomian wrote:
In the example they give of Luke shooting the photon torp down the Death Star's exhaust port they remove MAPs and add the 4D bonus for concentration before the force point doubling takes effect.

I don't have the book with me at work however so that's the best I've got off the top of my head.


Good enough for me to find it (R&E p. 143), thanks. And I did not know it worked that way.

I've got some problems with the example in comparsion to what happens on screen, but that's a differnt topic.

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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting... I have always beleived that you double for the force before taking out any penalties.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Interesting... I have always beleived that you double for the force before taking out any penalties.
That's how I've played it.

Thanks Esoomian. I will have to review that section of the rules when I am at home.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: What I typically do is this... Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Esoomian wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Good point. One of the GMs in our ongoing campaign keeps heckling the heck out of me when i have baddies use force points to actually do more than just take damage.. And woe betide me if i have the baddie quad up.


In my mind quading up is a GM exploit. It seems like a rules oversight rather than something you're supposed to be able to do and it has the potential for multiple DSPs
I go farther. I think it is a rules misinterpretation.

That said, of course the bad guys who have FPs will use them (or CPs) at an appropriate time. Why would they not?


Of course they should. The problem is with force points themselves. If the PCs use one while the Baddie dont = auto win, and vice versa. As you dont know when someone is going to use a FP, its rational to use one immediately.
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Esoomian
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Interesting... I have always beleived that you double for the force before taking out any penalties.
That's how I've played it.

Thanks Esoomian. I will have to review that section of the rules when I am at home.


Given the lack of evidence to the contrary and that one example supporting penalties coming out first I believe it's intended that Force Points double dice pools after all the penalties and bonuses have been added in.

This means a Force Point is ideal for doing one or two things exceptionally (like say catching a closing blast door and holding it up long enough for your friends to escape) and character points are what you should use for spamming multiple actions as you burn them per action.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:
This means a Force Point is ideal for doing one or two things exceptionally (like say catching a closing blast door and holding it up long enough for your friends to escape) and character points are what you should use for spamming multiple actions as you burn them per action.
That's consistent with the Force/Fate point = double one action that is seen in Hercules & Xena and in D6 Space.

It's just not how we've ever interpreted the rules, so I need to reread to see where the discrepency lies.

Regarding ZzaphodD's point - yes the must use FP first is a problem. I don't see that whether to double then subtract MAPs or subtract MAPs then double effects that decision much though. Also, since MAPs from reaction dodge/parries are not figured at the beginning of the round, it seems that there is an increased advantage to going first AND using a forcepoint (since reaction dodge and parry will not reduce the dice to be doubled). This will actually exacerbate the problem by encouraging the side with the initiative to immediately use the Force to wipe out their foes.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just ran a Find on Force Point in the 2E R&E rulebook. I'll start a new thread in Official Rules on this

Here.


Last edited by Bren on Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Esoomian wrote:

This means a Force Point is ideal for doing one or two things exceptionally (like say catching a closing blast door and holding it up long enough for your friends to escape) and character points are what you should use for spamming multiple actions as you burn them per action.


If that was the case E, then you could easy end up where someone who otherwise had a 5-6d skill ends up rolling 2d when on a force point for his skills after taking into account all minuses.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
If that was the case E, then you could easy end up where someone who otherwise had a 5-6d skill ends up rolling 2d when on a force point for his skills after taking into account all minuses.
And contrariwise, someone using Concentration and a single action to go from a 2D skill normally to a 10D skill (after MAPs) using concentration and a FP.

Here for new thread.
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