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Kaloth Varsk
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Jan 2012
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 Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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That part I'm not as excited about. It once again starts putting things into ridiculous damage numbers pretty easily.
One thing I'd have to think about with adopting this scale though is how much it changes "monsters". The 12D strength on that Krayt dragon isn't near as deadly when only 6D of that damage goes into it's attack damage. Not that this isn't overkill on most victims anyway.
It's claw attacks would go from 12D to 6D (I'd probably think about giving them +1D). It's bite attack would go from 15D to 9D (assuming it was calculated at str +3D). Still deadly, but not an automatic death. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | So if you could get your lift skill up to 9D you'd get a hefty 5D bonus to melee damage or do a respectable 5D damage when unarmed. |
Yes.
| Esoomian wrote: | I suppose then you'd get people trying to game the system and taking specialities in lifting: (s) Doing damage.  |
I'm sure there would be min-maxers who would try that. I wouldn't allow that as a specialization. If you want the damage bonus, you are just going to have to plunk down the CPs for the main skill.
| Kaloth Varsk wrote: | One thing I'd have to think about with adopting this scale though is how much it changes "monsters". The 12D strength on that Krayt dragon isn't near as deadly when only 6D of that damage goes into it's attack damage. Not that this isn't overkill on most victims anyway.
It's claw attacks would go from 12D to 6D (I'd probably think about giving them +1D). It's bite attack would go from 15D to 9D (assuming it was calculated at str +3D). Still deadly, but not an automatic death. |
Lowering creature damage is actually a bonus from my point of view. A Rancor has 7D STR and gets
Claws: STR+3D damage
Teeth: STR+5D damage
12D damage seems excessive to me. It means Rancors, even with their +3D armor bonus have little to no chance to resist or survive attack by another Rancor and 9D damage exceeds a heavy repeating blaster and is nearly equal to a thermodetonator. Which seems sufficiently powerful and scary for the monster to me. |
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Kaloth Varsk
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 28 Jan 2012
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | Lowering creature damage is actually a bonus from my point of view. A Rancor has 7D STR and gets
Claws: STR+3D damage
Teeth: STR+5D damage
12D damage seems excessive to me. It means Rancors, even with their +3D armor bonus have little to no chance to resist or survive attack by another Rancor and 9D damage exceeds a heavy repeating blaster and is nearly equal to a thermodetonator. Which seems sufficiently powerful and scary for the monster to me. |
Actually, I like it with the big creatures. Rancor was another one that came to mind, but I knew the Krayt dragon stats off the top of my head due to some recent Tatooine Manhunt posts. I don't have any concerns here.
However, the place you'd have to watch is creatures in that 2D-5D strength area are going to see the hit quite a bit. Not that this is a bad thing, but a creature with a str+1D bite might become more appropriate at str+2D to keep balance. |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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As I recall the in D6 space a character's soak is equal to half his stamina rounded up for energy weapons but his full stamina for physical damage so you're right some creatures may need adjustments to retain the same threat level.
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Fallon Kell
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Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Kaloth Varsk wrote: | | Ok, lets look at it this way with weapons. Once I cleave through you, does more strength matter? Most of these max damages are pretty high. |
Once you cleave through me, you've already rolled your damage against my strength and come up with 16+. Bisection is an effect, not a cause of the weapon's damage.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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I think the lifting bonus is too much. Ultimately it would not only put us right back ito the sitatuin we have with the RAW, but would in fact make it worse by making damage improvable.
A starting Wookiee PC with STR 5D and Lifting 7D comes to mind. The PC couldworkk on his liftingand end up doing more damage that in the RAW. IT gets even wrose if some of the damage augments options from the Star Wars supplements gets used with it.
I don't mind a bu\onus from lifting, but the skill shouldn't be as good as the actual STR stat. Ir else we will wind up with Jawas with STR 1D and Lifting (D, and similar silliness. The way the RAW works, there is no reason why somebody with a 1D STR can't have a 16D lifting. It just takes a little loner. |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I think if a character with 1D strength wants to spend 105 character points and (presumably) at least nine downtime sessions to get a 5D bonus to their damage then good luck to them. They're the ultimate glass cannon because they only have 1D to soak damage in return.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps it can be limited by saying you can only gain as much of a bonus from lifting as your strength/2 itself is...
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | I think if a character with 1D strength wants to spend 105 character points and (presumably) at least nine downtime sessions to get a 5D bonus to their damage then good luck to them. They're the ultimate glass cannon because they only have 1D to soak damage in return. |
But the point is by the RAW they would have always had a glass jaw, just now they can do lots more damage in melee/brawling AND be able to toss Wokkies around the room due to thier high Lifting skill. The problem is that actual lifting ability is a function of muscle mass (STR and size) not just training. But in the RAW stats only affect a skill's starting value.
| garkhal wrote: | | Perhaps it can be limited by saying you can only gain as much of a bonus from lifting as your strength/2 itself is..." |
Or maybe just cap lifting skill to 2x or 3x STR? With most skills I can see training allowing for high ability, but no amount of training is going to let somebody lift 5,10 or 20 times thier body weight. And the same thing applies to how much force somebody can exert. A 40 kg Jawa would need muscles that were larger than those of a 200kg Wookiee to be able to lift more and hit harder than the Wookiee! |
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Esoomian
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Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | garkhal wrote: | | Perhaps it can be limited by saying you can only gain as much of a bonus from lifting as your strength/2 itself is..." |
Or maybe just cap lifting skill to 2x or 3x STR? With most skills I can see training allowing for high ability, but no amount of training is going to let somebody lift 5,10 or 20 times thier body weight. And the same thing applies to how much force somebody can exert. A 40 kg Jawa would need muscles that were larger than those of a 200kg Wookiee to be able to lift more and hit harder than the Wookiee! |
There is a very old thread about limiting lifting to some multiplier of strength but I can't find it any more.
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Bren
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | A starting Wookiee PC with STR 5D and Lifting 7D comes to mind. The PC couldworkk on his liftingand end up doing more damage that in the RAW. |
Let’s look at what that would mean.
- D6 Space 7D lifting = 4D damage.
- SWD6 5D STR = 5D damage.
- To get a damage bonus in D6 Space that is equal to the 5D damage in the SWD6 RAW requires a lifting score of 9D - a skill that is considerably higher than that of a starting character.
- To get a damage bonus that is higher than the 5D damage under SWD6, would require a lifting skill of 11D. While it is possible for the Wookiee to increase his damage bonus above what we already see in SWD6 it requires a lifting skill near the best in the galaxy and an expenditure of 135 CPs and considerable time. I don’t see this as a real problem for the sort of CP awards we give out in our campaign.
| Esoomian wrote: | | I think if a character with 1D strength wants to spend 105 character points... |
I think it is actually 135 CPs not 105. 
| atgxtg wrote: | | But the point is by the RAW they would have always had a glass jaw, just now they can do lots more damage in melee/brawling AND be able to toss Wokkies around the room due to thier high Lifting skill. The problem is that actual lifting ability is a function of muscle mass (STR and size) not just training. But in the RAW stats only affect a skill's starting value. |
Yes, no limit on the lifting skill is a problem. But let’s not exaggerate the problem due to the change. There is nothing in the SWD6 RAW that prevents a 1D STR Jawa from raising his lifting score to 9D so that he can pick up, carry, or toss Wookiees. That can occur in the WEG D6 RAW as is. The only problem D6 Space adds is the ability to increase the damage done with high lifting scores.
| atgxtg wrote: | | Or maybe just cap lifting skill to 2x or 3x STR? |
A cap of 2x STR to the Lifting skill seems very reasonable for all the reasons listed. If the 1D STR Jawa wants to pump iron, he should be increasing his STR attribute not just his lifting. But this is a House Rule that already should be applied for SWD6. While size may matter not with the Force, a 1D or 2D STR character with a 10D or more lifting is just silly and the rules shouldn't allow it. The double advantage of being able to lift and carry more weight AND do more damage makes it more apparent because it increases the advantage to increasing the lifting skill. But even without that the problem is still there.
With a cap on lifting, I favor changing to the D6 Space STR damage. I think it brings physical damage more in line with projectile and energy weapon damage. While still allowing for the possibility for high STR bonuses. I also think it is one way to fix the weapon Max damage issue.
One could even allow the full STR attribute for knockdown or STUN effect if there is a concern that Wookiees and other high STR characters are being too penalized. That would let a raging Wookiee knock Stormtroopers around like nine pins, but would prevent a Wookiee on a FP from being the equivalent of a thermodetonator blast. |
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Raven Redstar
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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I think I'm in favor of 3x strength cap for lifting. It means that a max strength race can achieve the best in the galaxy rating on their lifting score. Also it means that damage bonus cap will be for a human 6D.
4Dx3 = 12D/2 = 6D
That doesn't seem that bad to me. The sheer number of character points needed for a lifting score that high is deterrent enough in my games.
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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Aha, I found the earlier discussion. It was actually part of this thread.
Strangely enough back then it was agreed that a cap of triple the strength score was appropriate.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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WoW! If I knew that one post was going to be quited so much, I7d have copywrited it! 
| Bren wrote: | | atgxtg wrote: | | A starting Wookiee PC with STR 5D and Lifting 7D comes to mind. The PC couldworkk on his liftingand end up doing more damage that in the RAW. |
Let’s look at what that would mean.
[list][*]D6 Space 7D lifting = 4D damage.
[*]SWD6 5D STR = 5D damage.
[*]To get a damage bonus in D6 Space that is equal to the 5D damage in the SWD6 RAW requires a lifting score of 9D - a skill that is considerably higher than that of a starting character. |
Yes, but not to hard for a PC with 7D lifting to reach fairly quickly. Once you allow lifting to adjust the damage then anybody and everybody will start taking lifting for an extra die or damage or two.
| Bren wrote: |
[*]To get a damage bonus that is higher than the 5D damage under SWD6, would require a lifting skill of 11D. While it is possible for the Wookiee to increase his damage bonus above what we already see in SWD6 it requires a lifting skill near the best in the galaxy and an expenditure of 135 CPs and considerable time. I don’t see this as a real problem for the sort of CP awards we give out in our campaign. |
I see it as a big problem in the sort of CP awards given out in the RAW. Remeber, you don7t have to spend the 135 CP all at once. Wrost still, the way the RAW works, low skill are cheap to raise, so it is easier for the 1D Jawa to up his lifting (and damage) than it is for the 5D Wookiee.
| Bren wrote: |
Yes, no limit on the lifting skill is a problem. But let’s not exaggerate the problem due to the change. There is nothing in the SWD6 RAW that prevents a 1D STR Jawa from raising his lifting score to 9D so that he can pick up, carry, or toss Wookiees. That can occur in the WEG D6 RAW as is. The only problem D6 Space adds is the ability to increase the damage done with high lifting scores. |
I'm not exaggerating the problem, the lifting adding to damage rule is what exaggerates the problem! Yes according to the D& RAW, there is nothing to stop a character with STR 1D from rasing lifting to 8D (or higher), but therre is little incentice in the rules to do so. But allowing lifting to up melee and brawling damage makes lifting skill much more appealing to low STR characters.
| Bren wrote: |
A cap of 2x STR to the Lifting skill seems very reasonable for all the reasons listed. If the 1D STR Jawa wants to pump iron, he should be increasing his STR attribute not just his lifting. But this is a House Rule that already should be applied for SWD6. While size may matter not with the Force, a 1D or 2D STR character with a 10D or more lifting is just silly and the rules shouldn't allow it. The double advantage of being able to lift and carry more weight AND do more damage makes it more apparent because it increases the advantage to increasing the lifting skill. But even without that the problem is still there. |
Yes, but the damage increase adds to the problem. It turns one problem into two.
A cap on some sort seems almost a requirment with the D6 SPACE rule. Either a hard cap, or s oft one (say dobuling the CP cost for each mutiple of the stat)-or else scaling lifting to the abilties of the character, possibly by replacing the set weights given in lifting with values bared off the character7s own weight.
| Bren wrote: |
With a cap on lifting, I favor changing to the D6 Space STR damage. I think it brings physical damage more in line with projectile and energy weapon damage. While still allowing for the possibility for high STR bonuses. I also think it is one way to fix the weapon Max damage issue.
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I think it helps, but it might make brawling ineffective. Most punches will have no effect. This would get worse with high STR characters. A fist fight between two Wookies with 5D STR and NO lifting skill would take a looonngg time.
| Bren wrote: |
One could even allow the full STR attribute for knockdown or STUN effect if there is a concern that Wookiees and other high STR characters are being too penalized. |
More like the rervse. If an average character (STR 2D) only does 1D damage then the "bulletproof" Wookiee just got tougher.
Instead of lifting adding to damage, I7d be a lot happier with the idea of the approrate combat skill (brawling, melee) adding to the damage isntead. It makes a lot more sense, andwe woulldn't need to worry about a cap. I have no problem accepting the idea of a Jawa with 1D STR, and Virborade at 8D doing more damage than a guy with 3D STR with melee weapons at only 2D. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Yes, but not to hard for a PC with 7D lifting to reach fairly quickly. Once you allow lifting to adjust the damage then anybody and everybody will start taking lifting for an extra die or damage or two. |
How quickly depends on the play style of the group. We've played for 10 years with the same characters and only one character has any skills at 9D. So while it can be a problem, it doesn't have to be a problem. And the 5D Wookiee putting 2D of his starting 7D of skills is going to be lacking somewhere else - maybe his brawling or melee combat. It's not like a 7D starting skill is free and remember the damage is halved from the RAW to start with.
| Quote: | | I see it as a big problem in the sort of CP awards given out in the RAW. |
It's not the CP award in the RAW that will cause a problem. It is the net award. I've had PCs end up with net zero CP awards or even end up negative for the adventure.
| Quote: | | Wrost still, the way the RAW works, low skill are cheap to raise, so it is easier for the 1D Jawa to up his lifting (and damage) than it is for the 5D Wookiee. |
But upping 1D to 5D only results in a 3D damage bonus. And I suggested a cap was a good idea. If the cap is 3xSTR (which I think is too high) he can only raise his lifting to 3D = +2D damage.
| Quote: | | I'm not exaggerating the problem, the lifting adding to damage rule is what exaggerates the problem! |
Sure you are. You talked about Jawas tossing around Wookiees as if that was a result of the D6 Space rule change. That can still happen in the RAW. All the Jawa needs is high brawling and lifting scores.
Jawa PC: "I use brawling to grab the Wookiee and throw him."
GM: "He's a Wookiee your not going to be able to throw a Wookiee."
Jawa PC: "You forgot my 7D lifting skill."
GM: "Darn it. OK roll your brawling and if you succeed your lifting."
| Quote: | | But allowing lifting to up melee and brawling damage makes lifting skill much more appealing to low STR characters. |
Of course it does. That's one reason why there should be a cap. The other reason is some reasonable physics for how much a tiny or weak being can lift.
| Quote: | | A cap on some sort seems almost a requirment with the D6 SPACE rule. |
Totally agree. But you should also cap lifting in the SWD6 as well. It is less likely to occur, but it still could and it is just silly to aloow a STR 1D lifting 10D character.
| Quote: | | I think it helps, but it might make brawling ineffective. |
Yes, that probably is a problem. It probably also requires something like the old 1E rules so that damage below STR soak could still Stun or treating the 1/2 STR/lifting damage bonus as killing damage and full STR/lifting as stun only damage.
One could even allow Stamina to determine number of stuns that a character can take. (Again possibly with a cap of 3xSTR or 4xSTR for the Stamina skill.) This would allow more options for a shock boxing type of character since he can then spend skill dice or CPs for brawling attack, brawling parry, lifting, and stamina.
| Quote: | | More like the rervse. If an average character (STR 2D) only does 1D damage then the "bulletproof" Wookiee just got tougher. |
Tougher against brawling attacks sure. Sure the 5D STR Wookiee is effectively immune to a 1D damage attack, but 5D STR vs 2D damage is pretty much immune already.
| Quote: | | Instead of lifting adding to damage, I7d be a lot happier with the idea of the approrate combat skill (brawling, melee) adding to the damage isntead. |
I wouldn't.
There already is a mechanism in the optional rules for additional damage based on a good attack roll. I prefer keeping DEX for the attack and parry and STR for the damage bonus rather then further adding to the already significant advantages of DEX. |
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