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Jatrell
Ensign
Joined: 16 Sep 2011
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 Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:30 am Post subject: Light Side Force Choke |
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Is there a Light side variant to this? I know this game came out long before but a question I am getting is that Mace Windu Force Choked Grevious (which was made cannon by Lucas) in the Clone Wars cartoon series. Just wondering. Thanks for the assistance.
Jatrell
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Fallon Kell
Commodore
Joined: 07 Mar 2011
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Location: Tacoma, WA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:01 am Post subject: |
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My first solution is to toss the RAW out the window, and just allow people to injure others with the force so long as it's in situations that wouldn't earn them a DSP if they did it using a lightsaber, blaster, or big stick.
If you don't want to do that, maybe it was some special non-LOS telekinesis directly on the air in his trachea?
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:49 am Post subject: |
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I just allow the Jedi to use the normal TK Kill attack to inflict Stun damage, with the DSP only coming into play if the Jedi inflicts normal damage. After all, Luke used Force Choke on the Gamorreans in ROTJ...
I do have an alternate rule somewhere that allowed Jedi to use certain DSP powers (like Tk Kill or Force Lightning) to inflict non-lethal damage if the Jedi in question succeeds on a Willpower roll to control his negative emotions. Short version; the Jedi's Willpower roll had to beat his Control roll, otherwise he suffered the full DSP effect of using the power.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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I asummed that Luke actually used Affect Mind on the Gammoreans. It gets the message across but without actually hurting the guards.
Not that that answers the question about Windu. It does appear than intent is the key factor, but we already had a thread about that. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Though since the sourcebook for ROTJ shows luke with a DSP or two, who's to say that he didn't get it from the choke.
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vanir
Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| In his SWRPG template, Mace Windu has used injure/kill at least once. He is known to have used this power, and has a Dark Side Point. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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IIRC, the stats for Luke are as of the end of the Battle of Endor, at which point he had used the Dark Side in pretty spectacular fashion to beat down Vader and chop off his hand. Also, AFAIAC, WEG giving Luke a DSP in those stats is nothing more than retroactive justification for them making TK Kill a DSP power in the first place. Film evidence would indicate that a Jedi can actually use that power without earning a DSP, as Luke did not appear to be acting out of emotion in that situation (nor would he need to, as optional powers like Affect Mind were also available). However, WEG made a blanket ruling that TK Kill was a Dark Side only power, so therefore Luke had to have gotten a DSP for using that power in ROTJ. But even then, their math is off, since Luke used the power twice (once on each guard, as there are no rules for using TK Kill on multiple targets simultaneously), plus calling on the Dark Side to beat down Vader on the Death Star. Shouldn't that be 3 DSPs, not 2? One more reason why I look at WEG stats as "more what you might call guidelines than actual rules."
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cheshire
Arbiter-General (Moderator)
Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | plus calling on the Dark Side to beat down Vader on the Death Star. Shouldn't that be 3 DSPs, not 2? |
Nah, they took that one off after he redeemed his father. 
Seriously, though, in game I probably would have cleansed a DSP for that. But I'd also give them out pretty liberally for choking someone with the Force regardless of their state of mind. But this is where GMs will come down differently on this.
I've tended to stay away from powers such as Electric Justice, and I've jokingly said I'd make a light side power of Force Choke and call it Righteous Respiratory Restriction, but I'd say that if you must make a LS version of it, turn the choking damage into stun damage, and call it good. Though I'm not sure why Jedi would need this power, as they already get to be pretty powerful as it is without adding long-range damage to their suite of abilities. D6 has always had the criticism that Jedi can get out of hand, and this would only contribute to the potential imbalance.
But, to each his own.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 3:30 am Post subject: |
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I feel the same way Cheshire.. I am one of those old school force believers, that doesn't buy into the vergre centric "oh you can use the dark side as long as you are not dark in emotion without getting any taint" drug..
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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But then the question comes back to: If Luke, a Jedi Knight in all but name, had so many weapons in his arsenal (Force Power-wise), and was not in a situation where he was under emotional stress, why would he resort to using a DSP power? The only logical explanation to me is that WEG, in an attempt to "balance" Jedi PCs, took a canon power that was not necessarily dark and rewrote it so as to weaken Jedi PCs relative to non-Jedi PCs. And I HATE it every time I come across that. IMO, any spin-off product should be faithful to the primary source, not edit it for their own reasons. In this case, I return to my original statement that the power TK Kill should be modified to allow Jedi to inflict Stun damage, but not effortlessly (hence the Willpower roll), so that the Jedi in question may attempt the power, but because of the potentially lethal nature of the power, he is veering into the grey area between light and dark and must tread carefully.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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But if Tk KILL was supposed to be usable for light side characters, why would it not have been called Tk Subdue
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vanir
Jedi
Joined: 11 May 2011
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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Our house rule is simple. Jedi remain safe from the Dark Side only by using proxies when using the Force in combat.
The two signature ways of using the Force imho also define how each philosophy is grounded, and why one is light and the other dark.
Force lightning uses the Force to directly attack a lifeform. The Force is generated and bound by lifeforms, so this is evil. Even using telekinesis to directly attack lifeforms, it is evil.
Lightsabre combat uses a proxy. A mundane skill, melee combat with a lightsabre is enhanced by knowledge and insight through the Force. But the Force is never used for attack. Knowledge and defence.
Even though you might be hacking someone to bits at the time you're using the Force for knowledge and defence to enhance your skill.
It is in the Force itself. Created by life, using it to uncreate life is inherently evil. So you have to use a proxy. It's not about trying to be good, it's about not being evil.
Jedi are neutrals, but they are prolife never pro-unlife. The old english word for unlife is evil, and in fact it is all that word really means. Live, spelled backwards inverses the meaning, this is genuine etymology. |
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | But then the question comes back to: If Luke, a Jedi Knight in all but name, had so many weapons in his arsenal (Force Power-wise), and was not in a situation where he was under emotional stress, why would he resort to using a DSP power? |
To start with, do we know that he is using TK Kill? An ordinary TK use would suffice here. As long as he doesnt damage hell get away without a DSP.
Whats the difference? TK Kills only purpose is to damage living beings. It cannot be used for anything else. This would be taint both the training and the use of this power. An ordinary TK use would be more in the realm of 'DSP worthy depending on situation and result' discussed above. A slight pressure over the throat (or just pushing someone away but aimed at the throat). Similar effect, but not from a force power with the sole intent of killing living beings. Again, if it would result in a wound a DSP would be the result by the RAW.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | But if Tk KILL was supposed to be usable for light side characters, why would it not have been called Tk Subdue |
But if film evidence shows that the Force Choke technique (whether it is covered under the Aegis of TK Kill or some other power) is usable by light side character, yet the representation of said ability in the game rules ignores this, then the RAW is in error, as it should be based on film evidence, not rewrite and/or ignore film evidence to suit its own purpose. If it should be represented by two separate powers, then where is TK Subdue? Why did WEG not include it, even in future volumes like the Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook? It is incontrovertible in the film that Luke Force Choked the two Gamorreans in Jabba's palace, so I return to my previous point; if Luke, a Jedi Knight in all but name, with so many other weapons in his arsenal (including Affect Mind), chose to use Force Choke, especially in a situation where there was no obvious moral or emotional dilemma (such as what he faces at the end of ROTJ), then why is this power automatically dark? He was calm and at peace, yet he used what WEG would have us believe is a Dark Side power. The simplest explanation is that it is a WEG screw-up (and not the first one).
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Whats the difference? TK Kills only purpose is to damage living beings. It cannot be used for anything else. This would be taint both the training and the use of this power. An ordinary TK use would be more in the realm of 'DSP worthy depending on situation and result' discussed above. A slight pressure over the throat (or just pushing someone away but aimed at the throat). Similar effect, but not from a force power with the sole intent of killing living beings. Again, if it would result in a wound a DSP would be the result by the RAW. |
Yet far simpler to just add a Stun option to TK Kill, and say that the DSP rule only applies if the Jedi inflicts normal damage instead of Stun. My Willpower rule actually complicates a simple process, but I like it because (IMO) the Willpower roll in general is a good in-game representation of the Dark Side / Light Side dichotomy, in that the Dark Side is "quicker, easier, more seductive." It requires a Jedi player who doesn't want his PC to become a Dark Side NPC to spread his CPs around a little, and is a good rules representation of the Jedi needing to master himself as well as the Force.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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