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Bren
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 Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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Then he was very lucky (or the GM nerfed the damage on purpose - which I guess is another sort of luck  ). Sometimes playhes get lucky when they choose suboptimal tactics. According to the odds, he should have been hit at least once.
But unless the gunner shooting him was a super duper sniper ace (so that it would be almost impossible to dodge or parry the shots), the Jedi would still have been better off parrying the shots or even dodging, than trying to absorb/dissipate two shots. The player lucked out, but he sure wasn't playing the odds.
But I submit that the example you provided actually demonstrates that it is not unbalanced to allow that Jedi (or any Jedi with a lower set of skills) to have the option of trying to both dodge and absorb/dissipate shots - and if both fail do the normal STR+armor resistance.
It's fine if you don't want to allow it for various reasons. But I don't think you can really claim that it his particularly unbalanced or unbalancing. |
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ZzaphodD
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | But I submit that the example you provided actually demonstrates that it is not unbalanced to allow that Jedi (or any Jedi with a lower set of skills) to have the option of trying to both dodge and absorb/dissipate shots - and if both fail do the normal STR+armor resistance.
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Whats the reason not to allow this? Its really a suboptimal tactic as you point out.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think its cause when their control gets up to a certain point it seems easier to just try A/DE, and if that fails go with the soak, rather than worrying about dodging...
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| ZzaphodD wrote: | | Whats the reason not to allow this? Its really a suboptimal tactic as you point out. |
You gotta ask G that one. Aside from the fact that the RAW doesn't specifically allow it, I don't see any reason not to allow a Jedi to try both to a/d and to dodge. As I mentioned, doing both is suboptimal - and typically either is inferior to a RAW lightsaber parry. But I don't see any reason to disallow suboptimal character tactics.
| garhkal wrote: | | I think its cause when their control gets up to a certain point it seems easier to just try A/DE, and if that fails go with the soak, rather than worrying about dodging... |
And what is the problem with a Jedi using absorb/dissipate energy instead of dodge? Is there some issue you have with the absorb/dissipate power itself? |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:35 am Post subject: |
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I used absorb/dissipate, like, once in all my years of play. I was fighting a battle (1 on 1) in the reactor core (or whatever) of a ship and the bad guy, realizing he'd lost, grabbed a grenade and jumped into the reactor. I had no time to get out of the room, and dodge wasn't going to get me out of the blast area.
So I declared Absorb Dissipate as my reaction. Rolled it, got 12 over the damage (I probably used a FP or a bunch of CPs, but can't remember). GM was impressed because I guess he'd forgotten that I had that power, since we never use it. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:09 pm Post subject: |
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Has anyone ever played with A/DE as it is described in I, Jedi, where absorbed energy is converted into "Force fuel" to enhance other powers? That would certainly make A/D a much more potent (and interesting) ability.
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I tend to allow any skill to be used as a reaction skill, as long as that use is reasonable. |
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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I guess Scholar as a reaction skill would come in handy on Jeopardy
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | ZzaphodD wrote: | | Whats the reason not to allow this? Its really a suboptimal tactic as you point out. |
You gotta ask G that one. Aside from the fact that the RAW doesn't specifically allow it, I don't see any reason not to allow a Jedi to try both to a/d and to dodge. As I mentioned, doing both is suboptimal - and typically either is inferior to a RAW lightsaber parry. But I don't see any reason to disallow suboptimal character tactics.
| garhkal wrote: | | I think its cause when their control gets up to a certain point it seems easier to just try A/DE, and if that fails go with the soak, rather than worrying about dodging... |
And what is the problem with a Jedi using absorb/dissipate energy instead of dodge? Is there some issue you have with the absorb/dissipate power itself? |
TO me, it is making jedi have 3 ways of avoiding damage, when all others only get 2 (dodge and soak, versus dodge/Ab-dis/soak).. which is yet another combat boost to them.
| Quote: | | Has anyone ever played with A/DE as it is described in I, Jedi, where absorbed energy is converted into "Force fuel" to enhance other powers? That would certainly make A/D a much more potent (and interesting) ability. |
As a different power than AB/Dis itself, yes. Control energy for me does that though i can't seem to find the write up i made for it.
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I guess Scholar as a reaction skill would come in handy on Jeopardy |
It seemed to do so for my friend who was on the show. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | TO me, it is making jedi have 3 ways of avoiding damage, when all others only get 2 (dodge and soak, versus dodge/Ab-dis/soak).. which is yet another combat boost to them. |
You keep saying it is unfair to the non-Jedi, but your own example doesn't show that.  The point is that it having 3 ways is not a combat boost to them. This isn't like we are playing D&D and Jedi are getting an extra free saving throw against petrification. Except in very rare instances (which depending on the play style the player will only know after the round is over) statistically it doesn't make sense for the Jedi to try to do A/D and dodge.
Choosing to try both A/D and dodge or both A/D and parry is demonstrably worse than only choosing one of A/D, dodge, or parry. So how the heck is it a big advantage to let the Jedi choose to do something that is not to his advantage? In D6 if you decide to hop on one foot and dodge the rules let you try to do that. It makes your dodge -1D for the extra hopping action. Trying both A/D and another defense in the same round is almost as stupid as deciding to hop and dodge.
This seems really clear cut to me. Am I missing something here? |
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Esoomian
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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I suspect what Garhkal is objecting to is that a Jedi with Absorb/Disipate energy doesn't need to worry about spending character points in dodge like other PCs and what's more because A/D Energy is a force power putting all your points in the related force abilities are not just a massve waste of time.
For example if I have 10D in dodge then I'm going to be awesome at getting out of the way but if I have 10D in control then not only do I have a decent chance of absorbing most firepower coming my way but I'm also awesome at a number of other force powers.
If that's his objection I understand where he is coming from but I don't think A/D Energy is that superior to dodging that it needs to be nerfed.
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Bren
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| Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | ...I don't think A/D Energy is that superior to dodging that it needs to be nerfed. |
That's because you are thinking correctly. Again, consider an example. Let's suppose the Jedi is shot at 5 times. Using dodge 10D means he can either full dodge, which, according to the RAW, adds about 35 to the range difficulty of all five shots or he can reaction dodge, which might allow a 9D dodge (if he takes one other action). In that case he substitues the dodge roll for the range difficulty so on average and before spending CPs any of the 5 shots below say 32 will miss this character. And 32 is a heroic roll. Most NPCs are unlikely to shoot that well.
On the other hand if I try to absorb/dissipate 5 shots, according to the RAW I must declare 5 actions minimum (since I can't reaction A/D). So I have 4D off all my rolls and I have to roll Moderate plus the damage, which for a simple blaster pistol means I have to roll around a 29 on 10D-4D=6D which averages a roll of 21. Odds are 4 out of 5 shots will not be absorbed. Now let's make it a bit easier on the Jedi. Let's allow him to do reaction A/D. And we will assume he uses his one declared action as an A/D energy. He still needs to roll a 29 or higher.
His 1st roll is the full 10D ~ 35 success!
His 2nd roll is at 9D ~ 32 success!
His 3rd roll is at 8D ~ 28 below a 50% chance of success. Not so good.
His 4th roll is at 7D ~ 25 he fails. Oww!
His 5th roll is at 6D ~ 21 he fails again. In fact the shot hits for extra damage (using the Spec Forces rules). Owwww!
But wait, the Jedi can spend CPs on his A/D to avoid damage. True enough. Up to 5 CPs in fact. But he has to spend CPs on each of the five shots that he fails to roll 29 or higher while the dodging Jedi only has to add CPs to one dodge roll that is good for all 5 shots.
OK class. Which is better at evading shots? A/D or Dodge?
Is A/D useless? No there are a few rare special cases where it may be useful and Darth certainly looked cool and impressive using it in ESB - though it looked like a reaction useage to me. Unless Darth was just showing off by absorbing the first shot and then TKing Han's blaster rather than TKing first thing. But A/D is nearly always an inferior choice to either dodging or lightsaber parry. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | I guess Scholar as a reaction skill would come in handy on Jeopardy |
Yup. Of coruse, sometimes it might be possible, but not every useful. Like using schiolar to identify the make and model of the blaster that is being shot at you rather than doging for cover.
But this ususally comes into play with things like Climb/Jump (for when the floor falls away). Basically a situation where someone could "react" to something but the applicable skill isn't specially listed as a "reaction skill".
If someone was playing PONG I could se computer use as a reaction skill. Or gaming. |
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Naaman
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| Posted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| For anyone familiar with d20 the reaction skill serves as both armor class and saving throws. Since saving throws are pretty abstract as to what they cover, the description of the event could well be something that in D6 would just be covered by a given skil such as climbing/jumping as mentioned above. While d20 might use a saving throw mechanic, everything in D6 is expressed in skills. |
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