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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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garhkal wrote: | I actually could see it helping you out (enhanced hearing) avoiding being surprised (better perception of enemy) but not outright stop it happening.. |
This is exactly my point. If ypu physical senses are used to detect sneaking enemies how can magnify senes not help. And danger aense might not be applicable. What about just hearing a spy sneaking around? |
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Bren Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | This is exactly my point. If ypu physical senses are used to detect sneaking enemies how can magnify senes not help. And danger aense might not be applicable. What about just hearing a spy sneaking around? | The spy's sneaking around is possibly drowned out by the extremely loud cricket chirping, the deafening creak and scrape of the tree branches in motion from the gentle breeze that sounds like a hurricane, and the surf-like crash of the blood rushing through the veins of his nearby companions. Unless the Jedi can focus his enhanced senses on a particular target, as it were, any particular noise may be drowned out by a wash of other useless noise. |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14359 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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True.. All those other amplified senses could drown it out.. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Esoomian High Admiral


Joined: 29 Oct 2003 Posts: 6207 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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That and other reasons previously discussed is why I prefer to think of it as information streaming directly from The Force bypassing the Jedi's actual sensory organs rather than just Force binoculars or something to that effect. _________________ Don't waste money on expensive binoculars.
Simply stand closer to the object you wish to view. |
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Bren wrote: | The spy's sneaking around is possibly drowned out by the extremely loud cricket chirping, the deafening creak and scrape of the tree branches in motion from the gentle breeze that sounds like a hurricane, and the surf-like crash of the blood rushing through the veins of his nearby companions. Unless the Jedi can focus his enhanced senses on a particular target, as it were, any particular noise may be drowned out by a wash of other useless noise. |
I tend to disagree here. Largely because having a higher perception die code in the first place does not come with those complications.
It would be like saying that a dog can't hear you sneaking up on him because he can also hear the car running 6 blocks down the road.
Sensory overload is possible, but not due to sharper/keener senses. For example, a person with poor visual acuity will still be disoriented by looking directly into the sun. And if he's wearing his glasses, this disorientation is not increased. Likewise, looking at the sun with binoculars does not increase the disorientation either.
Having a sharp sense of smell does not confuse you as to all the odors lingering around, it only makes you more distinctly aware of the scents and their sources.
The other thing to remember is that the brain constantly ignores sensory input that it is not using (for example, what percentage of the day are you aware of how your shoes feel on your feet... assuming they're comfy shoes? How often do you listen to yourself breathing? How often do you actually taste your saliva?) The brain is highly proficient at discarding/disregarding sensory input that it's not interested in. Magnified senses would not diminish the brain's ability to dump info that it does not want/need/use.
As far as the Force feeding the information directly to the brain, that works for me, although I prefer the concept of just sharper senses... |
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Fallon Kell Commodore


Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Posts: 1846 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | Likewise, looking at the sun with binoculars does not increase the disorientation either. | I'd think it would, though, when the binoculars focus the sunlight and set your retinas aflame... Fire inside of your head can be very disorienting.
While I'm inclined to agree with you on your basic premise of magnified senses detecting sneaking folks, there's more to sensory overload than just too much of one thing. You know how it can be hard to follow a conversation in a crowded room. Well magnified hearing could make a quiet sidewalk like that crowded room by allowing you to hear dinner table conversation in all the houses around you. The Perception attribute is more than just the acuity of your senses. It has to do with the brain's processing of that information too.
For that reason, I think you should get a perception bonus for magnified senses, but I don't think it should be an absolute counter to a sneak roll too. _________________ Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 2:34 am Post subject: |
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But you're not considering the flip side. Having weaker senses doesn't make it any easier to follow a conversation in a crowded room.
EDIT: Wait, I'm having a moronic episode: you're basically agreeing with me here. Just to make it clear: I don't think sharper senses should outright defeat an opposed sneak roll, which is EXACTLY why I'm proposing a perception bonus, rather than a success/fail on the force power. The RAW say that it's "modified by proximity." If you succeed on the sense roll, you'll hear the sneaking spy no matter where he is in the galaxy, and no matter how many CPs he spent on his sneak roll, and no matter how many times he got to re-roll 6s on that roll.
I think it should just be that you get a static bonus to Perception based on how high you roll on your sense. Max bonus of 4D or 5D for a heroic roll. |
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Fallon Kell Commodore


Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Posts: 1846 Location: Tacoma, WA
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:43 am Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | But you're not considering the flip side. Having weaker senses doesn't make it any easier to follow a conversation in a crowded room.
EDIT: Wait, I'm having a moronic episode: you're basically agreeing with me here. Just to make it clear: I don't think sharper senses should outright defeat an opposed sneak roll, which is EXACTLY why I'm proposing a perception bonus, rather than a success/fail on the force power. The RAW say that it's "modified by proximity." If you succeed on the sense roll, you'll hear the sneaking spy no matter where he is in the galaxy, and no matter how many CPs he spent on his sneak roll, and no matter how many times he got to re-roll 6s on that roll.
I think it should just be that you get a static bonus to Perception based on how high you roll on your sense. Max bonus of 4D or 5D for a heroic roll. |
Yeah, sorry to be confusing. I was using a response to your comment to springboard into an explanation of my position on the issue for everyone on the forums. The short answer is yes. We agree. _________________ Or that excessively long "Noooooooooo" was the Whining Side of the Force leaving him. - Dustflier
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Bren Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | But you're not considering the flip side. Having weaker senses doesn't make it any easier to follow a conversation in a crowded room. | Actually it can - to an extent. My mother, who is mostly deaf, hates wearing her hearing aids because they magnify all the sounds around her and she suddenly notices the sound the refrigerator makes in the other room. A sound she has not noticed for 20 years. Those other, extraneous sounds make it hard for her to listen to a conversation. We on the other hand have always heard the refrigerator and similar sounds and just learned to generally tune them out. I see magnify senses as a sudden and unusual increase in the acuity of ones sense (not the Force skill the five or so senses) not an increase in one's PER which is not at all identical to keen senses.
Quote: | If you succeed on the sense roll, you'll hear the sneaking spy no matter where he is in the galaxy, and no matter how many CPs he spent on his sneak roll, and no matter how many times he got to re-roll 6s on that roll. | Gee, that's not how I read the writeup of the power. If you are choosing that interpretation, I can see why you are concerned.
Quote: | I think it should just be that you get a static bonus to Perception based on how high you roll on your sense. Max bonus of 4D or 5D for a heroic roll. | As I said, generally I wouldn't add any bonus. Unless the Jedi is specifically trying to use magnify hearing for the purpose of "hearing someone sneak up on him" or "listening for unusual noises" I wouldn't give him any bonus to his search or PER at all. |
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: |
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Interesting insight about you mother, Bren.
Here's food for thought: In another thread, I've asked about input for a Jedi bodyguard character. I was looking up Force powers that he would likely make use of often.
Magnify senses had some great potential, but then I realized that there is no explanation of how the power interacts with other game mechanics.
What if the person was so used to using the power that they COULD dump all the stimuli they didn't want. Or perhaps a 2nd tier power that has this as a prerequisite such as "enhanced awareness" or some such? |
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Bren Vice Admiral


Joined: 19 Aug 2010 Posts: 3868 Location: Maryland, USA
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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Generally when we have used magnify senses it is to look at or listen to something in particular. A more general use could be a new or modified skill. Alternately, you could just allow the Sense skill to substitute for PER when trying to notice a danger to the client.
Or you could use a new or modified danger sense to allow the bodyguard to extend his danger sense to cover another person. This would give the Jedi bodyguard an uncanny ability to leap in front of the client to take the bullet - hope the bodyguard is wearing a blaster-proof vest.
The new skill could be Sense Another's Danger which would work like danger sense but for a different target. Like the other X Another's Y powers, you would probably need to add Alter and a proximity to client/target modifier. Adding multiple targets would increase the difficulty of activation or might just require an additional MAP penalty. If the bodyguard is a PC, I'd probably have him roll to activate but do a seperate roll against any actual danger just so the player doesn't know how good his total is. |
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garhkal Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14359 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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Sounds like we have 2 new force powers to write up.. Enhanced awareness and Sense other's danger. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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Bren wrote: | Generally when we have used magnify senses it is to look at or listen to something in particular. A more general use could be a new or modified skill. Alternately, you could just allow the Sense skill to substitute for PER when trying to notice a danger to the client.
Or you could use a new or modified danger sense to allow the bodyguard to extend his danger sense to cover another person. This would give the Jedi bodyguard an uncanny ability to leap in front of the client to take the bullet - hope the bodyguard is wearing a blaster-proof vest.
The new skill could be Sense Another's Danger which would work like danger sense but for a different target. Like the other X Another's Y powers, you would probably need to add Alter and a proximity to client/target modifier. Adding multiple targets would increase the difficulty of activation or might just require an additional MAP penalty. If the bodyguard is a PC, I'd probably have him roll to activate but do a seperate roll against any actual danger just so the player doesn't know how good his total is. |
This made a light bulb go off in my head. The power dim another's senses applies direct penalties to the target's perception. What power would be the opposite of that (with "self" as the target)? I'd think that magnify senses should fill that roll, and the difficulties could be transferred directly over to the new version (or perhaps just used as an alternate function of the existing power), but they are bonuses, instead of penalties. |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16406 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe you could just get rid of Magnify Senses altogether and use Enhance Attribute. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Naaman Vice Admiral

Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3190
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Posted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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But it only lasts one to three rounds and it's a pretty high difficulty. Plus, I like a sense-based power for this effect. |
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