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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16388
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Stunned should be in there somewhere.
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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So with that table you're saying a Jedi loses the force power absorb disipate energy entirely and can just substitute their alter dice (or whatever it is) for their strength dice when soaking damage?
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Esoomian wrote: | | So with that table you're saying a Jedi loses the force power absorb disipate energy entirely and can just substitute their alter dice... |
No, no. Sorry if that was unclear. If the absorb/dissipate roll succeeds they take no damage. If the absorb/dissipate roll fails by the listed amounts then they roll damage versus their STR with the listed maximums. So using the power and failing to absorb/dissipate all the energy may still do the Jedi some good as long is the moderate difficulty+damage isn't way over their Control roll.
Yeah, crmcneil, I left stun out on purpose. You could add it in for a result of zero. Or use 1-5 for stun and just shift everything else up +5. My only concern with adding a stun level in is that it makes it really hard to kill a Jedi with a blaster if the Jedi uses absorb/dissipate. It also makes the skill much more useful given that we don't see it used very much in the films. But if you like it with stun add it in. I mostly created the table for you anyway.  I don't know that I will use it, though I might. |
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Esoomian
High Admiral
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 6207
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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In that case it seems like a little too much of an advantage to me.
If regular Joe is shot at and they dodge they either successfully dodge and take no damage or fail to dodge and take full damage. There is no middle ground where they evade a portion of the damage and are forced to soak the rest (something like rolling with a punch).
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Naaman
Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3190
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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| To me seems like it should be all or nothing. Failure of the control roll = normal damage against target's strength. Maybe even a damage bonus, since the character is not actually trying to get out of the way... though since the Force power requires the user to roll 11-15 over the damage, then maybe not. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14315
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | If the roll is failed, then roll the full (undecreased) damage vs. the character's normal soak. Just as if the power had never been attempted. Really the language here is pretty unambiguous.
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That's partially why i am looking to go that route.. cause as it stands there is little reason for jedi to NOT try to ab/dis any shots that hit..
| Quote: | | It might be nice if even failure provided some advantage. And because I know that both C and G like tables, here is one. Wink Maybe something like: |
SEe above. If you make it that beneficial, then why would a jedi not always try to ab, even if all he had was 1 die to roll...
| Quote: | In that case it seems like a little too much of an advantage to me.
If regular Joe is shot at and they dodge they either successfully dodge and take no damage or fail to dodge and take full damage. There is no middle ground where they evade a portion of the damage and are forced to soak the rest (something like rolling with a punch). |
Hence my argument against improving it.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | That's partially why i am looking to go that route.. cause as it stands there is little reason for jedi to NOT try to ab/dis any shots that hit.. |
You are familiar with MAPs, right?
And when you say "as it stands" I can only assume you mean the RAW for absorb/dissipate energy. Your proposed fix introduces a totally new and unknown mechanic that makes the power effectively useless for it's designed function for any Force Users below the level of, say Vader.
| Quote: | | SEe above. If you make it that beneficial, then why would a jedi not always try to ab, even if all he had was 1 die to roll... |
Well there is always MAPs. And since the Jedi has to roll at least Moderate+damage, rolling one dice is basically pointless even with the modified rules I suggested to crmcneill and stupidly futile and counterproductive with the RAW.
From a game balance perspective adding partial damage reduction is a big advantage for a Force User with that power - though no where near the advantage garhkal seems to think it is. From a non-game balance perspective, there is a rationale for partial reduction of damage and there is a precedent in the RAW based on the Cover rules. (There is also a counter argument, but I will leave its discovery and explication to the enthusiastic detractors.  ) However, as I said in a previous post, I provided the table for crmcneil because I thought he would want one. I am not trying to persuade anyone to add this modification - not even myself. |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14315
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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True MAPS will kill your chance to do it more than once or twice in a standard round, but when you add in that you choose when to use it, can spend CP's to both boost this AND your soak roll AND your Dodge/parry roll, that gives jedi 3 chances to totally ignore any damage.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | True MAPS will kill your chance to do it more than once or twice in a standard round, but when you add in that you choose when to use it, can spend CP's to both boost this AND your soak roll AND your Dodge/parry roll, that gives jedi 3 chances to totally ignore any damage. |
As opposed to 2 chances for normals. And the normals may well have a better STR attribute since they didn't have to sacrifice any of their 18D attribute dice for a force skill. And the normal's dodge is at least 1D better since he is acting without the MAP. Sure there will be a few cases where a Jedi might benefit from taking mutiple rolls, but often the MAP for trying both dodge and absorb/dissipate will be suboptimal to just doing one of those actions. And spending CPs on all three rolls means the Jedi may drop 15 CPs on defense against a single blaster shot. That doesn't seem like a really good plan to me.
Just based on the RAW, but allowing a Jedi to choose to roll both dodge and absorb/dissipate with appropriate MAPs, it really seems to me you are getting very exercised about very little. Perhaps you could provide some examples for different skill level Jedi to prove how unbalanced the minor adjustment of allowing both an absorb/dissipate and a dodge/parry is in reality? |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16388
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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As an alternate possibility, perhaps a Jedi could only use this ability as a reaction skill if he spent a FP.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Random Numbers
Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2010
Posts: 454
Location: Gladsheim
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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MAPS ate my Jedi...
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ZzaphodD
Rear Admiral
Joined: 28 Nov 2009
Posts: 2426
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | I believe Z's "totally crazy" was in response to garhkal's proposal that failure to absorb/dissipate all the energy resulted in the Jedi not getting any STR resistance roll at all. Not to the original RAW for a/d. |
Thats correct! However Ive been thinking of having C/D Energy add to the damage resistance roll instead of negating all of the damage. It seems more in line with how the damage system works. Our former Star Wars GM (but about two decades ago) had some kind of system for this. This was of course before any other protective force power (ie force shield). Having both seems a bit OTT. If I have to choose Id prefer a bonus to damage resistance from C/D Energy any day over a Force Shield.
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14315
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Perhaps you could provide some examples for different skill level Jedi to prove how unbalanced the minor adjustment of allowing both an absorb/dissipate and a dodge/parry is in reality? |
Gencon 2003. Game table had many in the 7-8d region for most of the relevant skills.. 2 Jedi on table with 8d control, 6d+2 dodge and 2d+2 str (with +1d+1 from armor as well).. So by str alone (and armor) he is around the same as the others. Yes his dodge was less, but his High control allowed him to actually take an Light repeater shot with no effect.
| Quote: | | As an alternate possibility, perhaps a Jedi could only use this ability as a reaction skill if he spent a FP. |
I'd be happy with a "You can either dodge, Parry OR Use absorb/dissapate.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
Posts: 3868
Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Gencon 2003. Game table had many in the 7-8d region for most of the relevant skills.. 2 Jedi on table with 8d control, 6d+2 dodge and 2d+2 str (with +1d+1 from armor as well).. So by str alone (and armor) he is around the same as the others. Yes his dodge was less, but his High control allowed him to actually take an Light repeater shot with no effect. |
And he chose to roll an absorb/dissipate energy against each shot from a light repeating blaster?  What a fool.
OK. Lets look at your example. He rolls his control of 8D (average value 28 ) against each blaster shot. He has to roll at least moderate+6D damage (average value 32-36). So we should expect he will fail to successfully absorb/dissipate the first shot even if he does nothing else that round. If there are multiple shots each additional shot requires a -1D MAP. So after the first shot his odds get even worse. To succeed with in absorbing the first shot he will need to spend about 2 CPs to succeed. And an additional 2CPs +1 CP per additional shot for each additional shot. If he is shot 3 times, he needs to burn 9 CPs to absorb the 3 shots.
Now if instead he just dodged and tried to soak the hits, he has 4D soak (STR+armor) vs. 6D damage. He will need to burn 2 CPs for each hit. So even if his dodge does nothing. He only spends 6 CPs to take no damage. He is better off dodging and not trying to absorb. he'd likely be better off to spend 5 CPs to up his 6D+2 dodge to 11D+2. That will probably cause all the shots to miss.
And rather than spending CPs and actions to absorb, it seems far more efficient to just parry the blaster shots, since according to the RAW his gets to roll some huge number of dice to parry lightsaber+Sense-3D MAPs. He can probably succeed in parrying all the shots without spending any CPs or at least by spending less than 5 CPs.
So can you explain to me why you think it is really unbalanced to let him do something that is not to his advantage anyway? |
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14315
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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He was irc shot twice.. so his 8d cont dropped to 7d. He did NOT ellect to dodge as well.. So that 7d rolled against 6d+15.. surprisingly both were 2-3 over what was needed, though the latter roll he did need to drop 1cp.
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