Discrepancy in the Imperial Sourcebook?

[Fallon Kell]

[vanir]

For what it's worth here is what we wound up with for house rules in past campaigns, it has some holes and problems:

Stormtrooper legion is capable of extended operations, is commanded by a Stormtrooper Colonel and is essentially a battalion with support elements (techs and field crews, AT-walkers), 1000 troops. Regimental and larger field deployments are handled by the Army Infantry and Assault divisions, with Stormtroopers being reserved as elite shock troops and for small elite operations.
Large numbers of Stormtroopers will be organised directly by an Imperial Emissary or maintain their independent station commands, attached typically under Imperial Navy Captains and Army Generals.

On an Imp I Star Destroyer for example we had 1000 Stormtroopers plus about 8000 Imperial Army personnel (a full division with support).

This fit very well with the particular Star Destroyer as we used it through stages of the campaign and it had a planned sector patrol route which involved a lot of different roles, from dealing with uncharted settlements to combating pirates to subjugating a miners riot.
Having the variety of troop berthing really made for an interesting and competent Imperial protagonist group that was extremely difficult to combat in its primary role of regional pacification.

It also kept the theme that Imperial Stormtroopers are an elite force within the Empire, seen a bit less and I rule the common stats are highly circumstantial. Following the description of veteran and elite troop rotation means the basic stats work as a raw recruit but most tasked with independent missions or assigned high value posts are going to be veterans with command combatants and the potential for heroic individuals (or unique ones like an Imperial Guardsman on rotation training).
So you tend to see Stormtroopers a little less in any large formations in our games but they tend to be a real case by case basis on how tough they are, we learn to never take them for granted but no need to panic when you see them.

Smaller units fall under the Stormtrooper Sergeant sphere, as these are the only two listed ranks aside from Veteran Trooper and Royal Guardsman (which are selected from elite Stormtrooper ranks). So I usually organise Stormtroopers into groups of 40 or 800 and 1000 for the full legion. Larger organisations are attached directly to higher Imperial authority and a General or an Emissary will coordinate them or command them directly. In this they keep the aura of an elite Royal guards unit, without enough command structure to develop independent will, enigmatic enough to up and do whatever they want to in the name of the Emperor.

The problem I come to is when I sent out an Imp II Star Destroyer with an Emissary darksider I wanted to fill the full troop complement with Imperial Stormtroopers of every corps type and hit a brick wall with command and logistical support infrastructure. I wound up putting large numbers of CompForce Assault battalions on board to get support elements and vehicles in the field.

So let's say we're talking an Imperial II with a full Stormtrooper contingent.

How would you structure it for full independent large force operations? As a battleship though the Imp II isn't really meant for extended troop deployment like an Imp I is (with its garrisons and so on), so that's a bonus. You can get away with fast assault doctrine and short term deployment best suited to Stormtroopers.

[Bren]

[vanir]

You're right, I could be thinking of the Victories.

For the Stormtrooper formations I'm leaning towards making a distinction between Stormtrooper ranking and troop assignments attached to military staff. Working them a little bit like the Waffen SS Verfuegungstruppe (combat formations).

They have two chains of command, one is surreptitious and bureacratic (orders come directly from the Emperor or his royal advisors).
One is being attached directly to Army or Naval-security formations and subject to the military officer whose command they are assigned.

Enigmatic is a bit of an understatement with Stormtrooper organisation. In some ways how little individuality and culture there appears to be among them is one of their intimidating design. There is more to Stormtroopers than the HoloNet might publish, as shown in some EU and sourcebooks like Fragments from the Rim.

Aside from environmentally adapted formations there are elite training corps (radtroopers, storm commandos, royal guardsmen), there are heroic individuals known only among themselves, plenty of customisable deployments and an internal ranking system.

We use stats for veteran, squad leader and Stormtrooper-Colonel and ruled that these are the ones which most Imperial military have had occasion to interact, Stormtroopers only display rank sigils in the field and otherwise the rank system is in house and under royal authority.

So I'd say in terms of distinct stats/equip we have:
Stormtrooper veteran/squad leader
Stormtrooper sergeant
Stormtrooper captain
Stormtrooper colonel
larger formations commanded by military attachment or an emissary

meanwhile the most ubiquitous rank would be the veteran Stormtrooper. A Stormtrooper Colonel might have one as his chief of staff, filling the role of Major or Lieutenant-Colonel. Or he might be just leading a squad, or acting as a Lieutenant. Sergeants normally fill the role of Lieutenants in charge of platoons, although may lead a company or an elite veteran squad.
Stormtrooper Captains I've made up and placed largely for things like scout formations and special missions. Normally in charge of Lances and a security contingent at the company level, or a Spacetrooper detachment of 2 Assault shuttles plus support.
Stormtrooper Colonels are regimental commands typically assigned to Star Destroyers and garrisons numbering around 1000 including support elements (drivers, techs, scouts, etc.). If a position doesn't exist that could suit a Stormtrooper-style armour variation (eg. AT-AT drivers we have as part of the Stormtrooper Corps), I fill in the blanks using CompForce Assault to draw from. This keeps the theme of being apart from the regular military in organisation.

It is still preferrable to have Imp Officers on hand during any sizeable Stormtrooper detachment simply because their skills specialise in command which is needed for coordinated actions. Stormtrooper-ranks tend to develop some squads tactics which is good for initiative and combat bonuses.

If I want to keep my Stormtrooper formation armoured I find company level is about as big as I can go without turning them into waves of cannon fodder, and I have to sprinkle in some veterans, a colonel commanding, a few sergeants and a royal guardsman or two on training rotation (wears normal Stormtrooper armour), then throw in support elements from the specialised corps, scoutbikes and walkers.

It's the basic movie style layout.
But like the way the Wehrmacht had initial problems with Waffen-SS because their ranks of military authority were given to them by the Nazi Party and not the Army, half the time they simply weren't qualified for their positions.
In the same way the internal, almost clandestine nature of Stormtrooper organisation is a feature of COMPNOR rather than the Imp military and there would be some degree of animosity and apprehension about the Stormtrooper ranks. It marks a split between career military personnel and the politically ideological COMPNOR which dominates them.

[CRMcNeill]

vanir, you seem obsessed with the idea of having a stormtrooper legion number exactly 1,000 stormtroopers, regardless of the fact that legions originally had a nominal (thank you, Bren) strength of 6,000. It's your campaign, of course, but I'm not sure where this is coming from. The prequels have shown us that stormtroopers also have their own assault vehicle crew variants, so there is no reason that those specialists don't exist just because WEG never made stats for them.

Chopping stormtrooper numbers so that they are rarely seen elite units flies in the face of their stated intent. Stormtroopers are conditioned to be absolutely loyal, trained to respond to combat situations on the varied worlds of the Empire on very short notice, and there are reports indicating that the total number of stormtroopers outnumbers the combined forces of the Army and Navy. That may or may not be true, but the intent of stormtroopers is symbolic, as well. They are the living, breathing symbol of the Empire, found wherever the Empire is.

If you look at the TO&E for an Imperial Sector Group, you will see that the Empire already has plenty of transport space for Imperial Army units. A full-strength Sector Army has "774,576 troops out of a total strength of 1,180,309 personnel in total, with 66,640 repulsorcraft including 13,992 heavy tanks." Assuming that the stats for ISDs are accurate, there are 232,800 (24 x 9,700) stormtroopers in a Sector Group, roughly 3 to 1 odds. This, of course, does not count smaller stormtrooper units that may be deployed to smaller vessels or major installations.

By your calculations, stormtroopers would be reduced to a strength of 24,000 in a Sector Group, which is not viable for a variety of reasons. Under current stats, Imperial Army troopers are actually better than baseline stormtroopers, but stormtroopers have unique advantages due to their training, equipment, and the fact that they seem to ignore casualties and just keep coming as if there is an endless supply of them. That attitude does not coincide with stormtroopers being fielded in limited numbers. There needs to be a lot of them.

Having a mixed troop complement aboard an ISD would make sense if the ship is being deployed on a special mission or on an extended patrol into unknown territory would need to be prepared for anything, but IMO, a better combination would be as many stormtroopers as possible, with Assault Vehicle Stormtroopers manning that AT-ATs and other vehicles.

Also, you seem to be operating on the assumption that, just because WEG never statted something, it doesn't exist. You're jumping from Stormtrooper Sergeant to Stormtrooper Colonel on the assumption that just because other ranks aren't statted they don't exist, but that isn't necessarily the case. In a previous post on this thread, I listed the known officer ranks in the Imperial Army, yet no stats exist for any of those ranks either. There is no reason to assume that stormtroopers do not have similar ranks to the regular Army.

As far as the troop complement for an ISD, I did something a little different...

For starters, I reduced the troop complement size and doubled the fighter wing (144 instead of 72, which makes more sense for a Superiority vessel).

For the troop complement, I restructured something similar to United States Marine Corps Air/Ground Task Forces. The core of the unit is four stormtrooper battalions, each composed of three line companies, a heavy weapons company and a scout platoon. This regiment is then reinforced with a mixed repulsorlift armor battalion with enough transport capacity to transport one of the stormtrooper battalions. There is also a mixed walker battalion, with one company each of AT-ATs, AT-STs, AT-PTs and AT-AAs. One company of AT-ATs has the capacity to transport one stormtrooper battalion, and is usually escorted by the AT-STs and AT-AAs. The AT-PTs are deployed in support of the third battalion, which is usually landed by dropship or Sentinel landing craft.

There are also additional attachments in the form of mixed artillery support units, combat engineering units, plus the special troops battalion, including a platoon of space troopers, and a company each of sea troopers, radiation troopers and storm commandos.

In a full-scale deployment, the Star Destroyer can put three full stormtrooper battalions on the ground, complete with reinforcing vehicles and weaponry, retaining the fourth regiment in reserve. I haven't worked out all the details yet, but the end result will have roughly 6,000-7,000 troopers, counting vehicle crews, which amounts to a reinforced regiment on the Imperial Army TO&E. An Imperial Army Regiment is commanded by a Lieutenant Colonel, which could be easily substituted for a Stormtrooper Colonel.

As far as the support elements, I just invented a separate Stormtrooper type called the Stormtrooper Engineer and tacked them into the TO&E similar to the way support personnel double as combat engineers in the Special Missions battalions.

And like Bren said, I'm not really seeing the distinction you mention between Imperial I and Imperial II Class. They both seemed intended as a superiority platform (i.e. Battleship & Carrier).
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index

[vanir]

Like I've mentioned before it's been a long hiatus from gaming, this was how we used to run things which did seem to work well in most gaming but I did run into the problems with not having enough numbers of stormtroopers available as you suggest.

With all the new material around now, a new gaming group and we've just started a fresh campaign, I'm reviewing all our previous house rules in order of importance.

This stormtrooper thing is definitely one which we need to sort out our house rules about. Thankfully we haven't encountered them much yet, just private security.

So I'm rethinking the SD contingent. I wanted to have the versatility of comprehensive army formations where stormtrooper corps are very generic and eventually boring. At least with army you get a variety of vehicles and tactics to play with some creativity.

It doesn't help that I don't have any sourcebooks anymore, they're at the hosts house so I'll have to buy a set for homework and have to work from memory. I've just been doing stuff like going over lightsabre construction guidelines and building npc ships using a downloaded system.

[CRMcNeill]