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Initiative and Reaction Skills
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cowboy Hat wrote:
I don't have either books here but I believe the updated cortex rules work as follows...
There seems to be a very large advantage to going first since #1's first two attacks are vs. a static defense and in Star Wars D6 a static defense often means the attacker only needs to roll a 1-5 or better to hit. So there is a really good chance that attacker #2 will never get to roll that third action.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Initiative and Reaction Skills Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
I recall a little used house rule that switched which player rolled initiative after the current roller rolled a 1 on the wild die. You moved to the next highest initiative in the group. This let someone else roll for a while and offered a slight benefit to the side that had more than one character with a decent perception. IIR once the current roller got a six on the wild die you could switch back to the higher perception rolling for initiative.
that's quite cool

Bren wrote:
It is a bit unusual for current RPGs. At one time virtually all board games did turns this way. But really I think it's only slightly more bizarre than the notion of having turns at all. The real world doesn't have turns. Wink

Very true. Feng Shui, the game I mentioned does tend to do it in a novel way, which I wont derail here to explain but basically allows for the minds eye to imagine things taking place simultaneously.

But now I have finished saying that, it's your turn ;P

Bren wrote:


b) This will make combat more deadly, especially at point blank range, since the side that shoots first will be targeting a difficulty of 5 or less. It may also encourage dodging before you even know someone is shooting at you. Having a PC dive for cover when no one actually shoots at him (or even at all) may be more realistic, but it seems pretty uncinematic. I find the combination of more deadly and less movie like unappealing.



I'm not thinking I'll actually run with this (I'm going to go with something along the similar lines of the cortex system as earlier mentioned) but I actually like my star wars more realistic and deadly - I like gritty and I know that a lot of people feel that it's not in keeping with the feel of SW, that fine for them. However, I see the universe as adaptable. There's a kids tv cartoon of star wars now, and if it ever ever gets made then the live action tv series promises to be as dreary, I mean depressing, I mean dark and gritty as Battle Star Galactica was.

Bren wrote:


c) Seems better than b, but I don't really see the need for an additional penalty to the dodge or parry. The net effect of the additional penalty is that it may make no sense to roll a reaction since with a minimum -2D penalty the range difficulty may be higher than the dodge (especially at longer ranges and for beginning characters). This would lead to characters standing flat footed while being shot at. In the right circumstances that could look either very cinematic or just very stupid.


Yeah, since starting the post a year ago I don't think I'd go for this either.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Initiative and Reaction Skills Reply with quote

Cowboy Hat wrote:
Bren wrote:
I recall a little used house rule that switched which player rolled initiative...
that's quite cool
It was kind of fun. Smile
Quote:
Feng Shui, the game I mentioned does tend to do it in a novel way, which I wont derail here to explain but basically allows for the minds eye to imagine things taking place simultaneously.
Interesting.
The other problem with turns is that turns and actions are by their nature stochastic and discrete rather than flowing and continuous. We try to treat the round as continuous rather than discrete, by having movement occur throughout the round along with other actions. But since we prefer a rules light approach, we just fudge that aspect rather than getting all hung up on measuring moves in inches or anything like that.

Quote:
(I'm going to go with something along the similar lines of the cortex system as earlier mentioned) but I actually like my star wars more realistic and deadly - I like gritty and I know that a lot of people feel that it's not in keeping with the feel of SW, that fine for them. However, I see the universe as adaptable. There's a kids tv cartoon of star wars now, and if it ever ever gets made then the live action tv series promises to be as dreary, I mean depressing, I mean dark and gritty as Battle Star Galactica was.
You are certainly not alone in preferring gritty/deadly and there is certainly room for that in the Star Wars multiverse. Personally I prefer more cinematic. As a GM it has always seemed trivially easy to kill off PCs. It's much harder sometimes to keep 'em alive. Wink One of the things I like about Star Wars D6 is the system includes features like the use of CPs and reaction skills that let players keep their characters alive.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Initiative and Reaction Skills Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Cowboy Hat wrote:
Bren wrote:
I recall a little used house rule that switched which player rolled initiative...
that's quite cool
It was kind of fun. Smile
Quote:
Feng Shui, the game I mentioned does tend to do it in a novel way, which I wont derail here to explain but basically allows for the minds eye to imagine things taking place simultaneously.
Interesting.
The other problem with turns is that turns and actions are by their nature stochastic and discrete rather than flowing and continuous. We try to treat the round as continuous rather than discrete, by having movement occur throughout the round along with other actions. But since we prefer a rules light approach, we just fudge that aspect rather than getting all hung up on measuring moves in inches or anything like that.

Quote:
(I'm going to go with something along the similar lines of the cortex system as earlier mentioned) but I actually like my star wars more realistic and deadly - I like gritty and I know that a lot of people feel that it's not in keeping with the feel of SW, that fine for them. However, I see the universe as adaptable. There's a kids tv cartoon of star wars now, and if it ever ever gets made then the live action tv series promises to be as dreary, I mean depressing, I mean dark and gritty as Battle Star Galactica was.
You are certainly not alone in preferring gritty/deadly and there is certainly room for that in the Star Wars multiverse. Personally I prefer more cinematic. As a GM it has always seemed trivially easy to kill off PCs. It's much harder sometimes to keep 'em alive. Wink One of the things I like about Star Wars D6 is the system includes features like the use of CPs and reaction skills that let players keep their characters alive.


Well not to take away from the D6 love but there's a pretty darn good Cortex star wars supplement floating about at the moment, which is good for cinematic (but then again so is D6, but I prefer their MAP system).

I always feel there's no reason for things not to be dark and gritty with a cinematic system (BASH, Cinematic Unisystem, Cortex, Savage Worlds [played narratively]). Unless I'm playing actual war games I don't go for miniatures or measuring things in inches (I don't even like saying it, it's seems naughty, but that's because I'm immature). In fact, when the rulers come out at the table and people start trying to work out line of sight between miniatures in rpg's I tend to walk away from the table.

But I'm derailing my own thread now...
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Azai
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hrm, I guess sometimes ignorance is bliss.

How I have always been running sessions (Granted I usually just do it with my fiancee, MAYBE a friend every now and then. But mostly us two)

I have every character roll perception. Highest goes first, and lowest goes last. The first person says what they want to do. Then do it.

Now let's say this first character gets attacked, always get to react. But they do it at -1D because they the did an action in their round. If attacked again they dodge at -2D. Again -3D.

We've always enjoyed this but I am finding out now this my be incorrect against RAW. I also learned that usually when you make your "dodge" roll at -1D(IF it is a second action) You don't roll another dodge, if another person attacks you, they just have to beat that first roll you made.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Azai wrote:
Hrm, I guess sometimes ignorance is bliss.

How I have always been running sessions (Granted I usually just do it with my fiancee, MAYBE a friend every now and then. But mostly us two)

I have every character roll perception. Highest goes first, and lowest goes last. The first person says what they want to do. Then do it.

Now let's say this first character gets attacked, always get to react. But they do it at -1D because they the did an action in their round. If attacked again they dodge at -2D. Again -3D.

We've always enjoyed this but I am finding out now this my be incorrect against RAW. I also learned that usually when you make your "dodge" roll at -1D(IF it is a second action) You don't roll another dodge, if another person attacks you, they just have to beat that first roll you made.


That's how it is in the generic cortex system (again it's -1 step rather than -1 dice, but it translates pretty much the same) and I think it's the best way of doing it personally. It's not RAW, but as everyone keeps saying, who runs things 100 percent RAW.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Initiative and Reaction Skills Reply with quote

Cowboy Hat wrote:

b) As D6 Space (paraphrased). - On your turn you may declare a full defense or multiple actions where one of actions these may be a reaction defense. These defense scores come into effect after your turn in the round. You can't react to an attack before this as you just weren't fast enough.


What if the character dodged the round before? Then his last dodge should be in effect until his new turn.

Otherwise people would do things, then freeze for a few seconds, do another set of actions, freeze, etc.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Initiative and Reaction Skills Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
Cowboy Hat wrote:

b) As D6 Space (paraphrased). - On your turn you may declare a full defense or multiple actions where one of actions these may be a reaction defense. These defense scores come into effect after your turn in the round. You can't react to an attack before this as you just weren't fast enough.


What if the character dodged the round before? Then his last dodge should be in effect until his new turn.

Otherwise people would do things, then freeze for a few seconds, do another set of actions, freeze, etc.


I'm not sure I get what you mean - my bad, it's been a long day here.

-But I'm not overly enamoured with the Open D6 version any more, maybe someone who knows that version of D6 could explain it better.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Initiative and Reaction Skills Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
What if the character dodged the round before? Then his last dodge should be in effect until his new turn.

Otherwise people would do things, then freeze for a few seconds, do another set of actions, freeze, etc.
That seems like a reasonable fix if one is going to use version b). Of course it only helps you if you survive the first round of combat. Wink
Cowboy Hat wrote:
I'm not sure I get what you mean - my bad, it's been a long day here.
He is saying that your reaction dodge lasts from the time you first take that action in round N until your next opportunity to act in round N+1. Is that more clear?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Initiative and Reaction Skills Reply with quote

Cowboy Hat wrote:
ZzaphodD wrote:
Cowboy Hat wrote:

b) As D6 Space (paraphrased). - On your turn you may declare a full defense or multiple actions where one of actions these may be a reaction defense. These defense scores come into effect after your turn in the round. You can't react to an attack before this as you just weren't fast enough.


What if the character dodged the round before? Then his last dodge should be in effect until his new turn.

Otherwise people would do things, then freeze for a few seconds, do another set of actions, freeze, etc.


I'm not sure I get what you mean - my bad, it's been a long day here.

-But I'm not overly enamoured with the Open D6 version any more, maybe someone who knows that version of D6 could explain it better.


One should always remember that the turn sequence is an abstract way of representing 'real life'. Actions takes place along a timeline. If you run, shoot and dodge, you dont really do all these things during a single second but rather during the entire 5 second round. A character decides to do 3 actions during his round, these actions will then take place until his next round sequens, when he perhaps decides to do two other actions. If a character can only 'use' a dodge after his turn in the round has taken place (ie otherwise he gets shot before he manages to move), then that dodge should be in effect until his next turn sequence (its a continuous action).
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Initiative and Reaction Skills Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:

Otherwise people would do things, then freeze for a few seconds, do another set of actions, freeze, etc.


Sorry, should have clarified. It was more the above statement that threw me.

Yeah I think I get it.

I do think that any action taken from one round to another tends to get complicated the more characters that are involved, but otherwise yeah, it's fine.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have seen some gms try the 'your dodge from last round applies till your first action this.. but all seemed to drop it as it hurt the pcs more than helped.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I have seen some gms try the 'your dodge from last round applies till your first action this.. but all seemed to drop it as it hurt the pcs more than helped.
Question How would that hurt the PCs?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Initiative and Reaction Skills Reply with quote

Cowboy Hat wrote:


I do think that any action taken from one round to another tends to get complicated the more characters that are involved, but otherwise yeah, it's fine.


I can agree to that. Therefore PCs / NPCs are always allowed to dogde if they know they are under attack (or suspect), even though they are fired upon before 'their slot' in the round.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
I have seen some gms try the 'your dodge from last round applies till your first action this.. but all seemed to drop it as it hurt the pcs more than helped.
Question How would that hurt the PCs?


They get more enemies to shoot at, so an enemy who had a good dodge (poor init) still has it applying more often.
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