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Should you penalize stupid player actions?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And pray tell.. what do you define as "really stupid"

would sticking around to fight 4 or more to 1 odds be stupid?
Fighitng someone obviously your superior in combat?
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
And pray tell.. what do you define as "really stupid"

would sticking around to fight 4 or more to 1 odds be stupid?
Fighitng someone obviously your superior in combat?

Those sound more heroic than really stupid.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So no one would die in either case..
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
So no one would die in either case..
Dude, I didn't say that. You need to ask the guy with that no kill rule, not me.

I said it was heroic. But I assume you've heard of a heroic death, not so? Wink

That does remind me of a question for you though. In Sparks what happens if a character dies in one adventure?
--Does that mean the player can no longer run that character in any Sparks games?
--Are all the CPs gained from writing up and editing adventures, GMing, etc. that were spent on that character used up and gone for good?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heroic Death = Part of the line I use to convince that idiot to die so that I can stay alive.
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Anakin
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
And pray tell.. what do you define as "really stupid"

would sticking around to fight 4 or more to 1 odds be stupid?
Fighitng someone obviously your superior in combat?

Those sound more heroic than really stupid.


Good point. If it is very heroic I am also reluctant to kill them, but then again it is heroic to die for others...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
So no one would die in either case..
Dude, I didn't say that. You need to ask the guy with that no kill rule, not me.

I said it was heroic. But I assume you've heard of a heroic death, not so? Wink

That does remind me of a question for you though. In Sparks what happens if a character dies in one adventure?
--Does that mean the player can no longer run that character in any Sparks games?
--Are all the CPs gained from writing up and editing adventures, GMing, etc. that were spent on that character used up and gone for good?


I love heroic deaths..

Quote:
In Sparks what happens if a character dies in one adventure?
--Does that mean the player can no longer run that character in any Sparks games?
--Are all the CPs gained from writing up and editing adventures, GMing, etc. that were spent on that character used up and gone for good?


1) Death - means yes. that guy is gone for good.
2) CP. All that you earned is gone. Just like in a home game. Well unless your gm has the capacity for resurrecting people in his home game.
NOW with that said, lets say i die during the morning session on Sunday at gencon. I fly out at 3 so won't be thre to even play the afternoon session. I had 2 modules i wrote premier and 1 that i edited Premier. I also gm'ed 8 slots (so i could be a cheapscate and get my room compensated for)...
Those CPs earned from the gming ( 8 ), the Authoring (2 modules x 10 = 20) and editing (1 module at 9) are not lost and can be applied to my new guy.

PLUS sparks has a nifty rule called "Death and retirement".
For each full sheet you had completed (7 games etc).. yu earn 25cp (effectively half price) to apply to your replacement character.
You can use that cp to increase existing stats as normal with the following caviats:
1) You can LEARN 1 new skill for every 2 full sheets you had
2) yuo can make one increase PER SKILL you have (or learn) per full sheet,
3) you can make 1 Attribute increase per 10 full sheets.

So Lets take Marcus my former PC. He died in his 3rd module of his 9th Sheet update. IE He had completed 8 full sheets..
He now has 25x8=200cp to spend.
My new character, Qualen (marcus's younger brother who was training at teh academy while marcus was an active rebel) can now
Learn 4 new skills
Make 1 attribute increase
Increase as many skills as i have CP to support increasing up o 8 times each.

I can also take those CP and convert them into cash at the rate of 1cp=500 credits... AS YET there has been no info put out on a limit to this, but you are unable to make big purchases (if it not in the MAIN rule book, its no go)..
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Bren wrote:
In Sparks what happens if a character dies in one adventure?

1) Death - means yes. that guy is gone for good.
2) CP. All that you earned is gone.
PLUS sparks has a nifty rule called "Death and retirement".
For each full sheet you had completed (7 games etc).. yu earn 25cp (effectively half price) to apply to your replacement character.

Thanks G. Smile I wondered if there was any carry over. So though the old character dies the new character starts out with extra CPs based on what CPs the old PC (and player) previously were awarded.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Effectively..
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Effectively..

Well, that is some consolation then.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Should you penalize stupid player actions? Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
On a number of threads I have seen comments indicating that GMs will penalize a player for "stupid" actions.


Im thinking of this the other way around. Normally Ill give the players some leeway when it comes to really tough spots and fights. This is I normally wont spring an ambush with a High Inquisitor backed up by a platoon of Stormcommandos with no chance of detecting and avoiding it (plot reasons aside of course). But if players do really stupid things, not taking rather obvious hints or such, it might just happen..

Its not punishing them, but removing the extra favours.. Wink
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: Should you penalize stupid player actions? Reply with quote

ZzaphodD wrote:
Bren wrote:
On a number of threads I have seen comments indicating that GMs will penalize a player for "stupid" actions.


Im thinking of this the other way around. Normally Ill give the players some leeway when it comes to really tough spots and fights. This is I normally wont spring an ambush with a High Inquisitor backed up by a platoon of Stormcommandos with no chance of detecting and avoiding it (plot reasons aside of course). But if players do really stupid things, not taking rather obvious hints or such, it might just happen..

Its not punishing them, but removing the extra favours.. Wink

That also makes sense. What you describe sound like the results or consequences of PC actions, not penalties per se.

I'm not fond of penalyzing suboptimal choices, in part, because I came to roleplaying from the wargaming side of things, I tend to over analyze tactics. This intimidates some players (and GMs) who are not tactically inclined. This can create paralysis in those players and for me Star Wars should be a fast moving game, much like the movies not a game of Squad Leader. Therefore I want to encourage fast decision making in the players when I GM and in myself when I play.

I find one of the best ways to do this is to try for the tone in the films. The characters don't have perfect tactical plans (just rewatch the action on the first Death Star), but the action moves fast, is exciting, and occasionally funny. As long as my players are selecting actions that are fast, exciting, occasionally funny and are true to their character's skills, background, and personality I don't find those to be "stupid" actions. And if the action advances the plot, even better. Very Happy

Personally, I've had a lot of fun roleplaying a brash, tactically unsophisticated character. I spend more brain power thinking about how my character would approach the action rather than trying for a tactically perfect plan. Heck, sometimes I know the plan is pretty lame, but that's the plan the character would enact. But again, this only works because the GM isn't out to penalize the players or kill my PC at the first sign of suboptimal tactics.

I'm not saying this works for every game. If the GM and the players want to run a gritty, tough campaign where a single mistake or flawed tactic gets someone killed, that's fine for them. Heck, that's how half of our D&D campaigns played back in the day, complete with interparty backstabbing and scheming. One DM and I ran campaigns with a style which I believe was referred to as Doom & Despair. Wink If PCs made it above 4th level that was quite impressive. In years of high school/college play I don't think any of the players made it above 7th level in my campaign.

But today, for Star Wars, I prefer a different style.
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ZzaphodD
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Should you penalize stupid player actions? Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
ZzaphodD wrote:
Bren wrote:
On a number of threads I have seen comments indicating that GMs will penalize a player for "stupid" actions.


Im thinking of this the other way around. Normally Ill give the players some leeway when it comes to really tough spots and fights. This is I normally wont spring an ambush with a High Inquisitor backed up by a platoon of Stormcommandos with no chance of detecting and avoiding it (plot reasons aside of course). But if players do really stupid things, not taking rather obvious hints or such, it might just happen..

Its not punishing them, but removing the extra favours.. Wink

That also makes sense. What you describe sound like the results or consequences of PC actions, not penalties per se.

I'm not fond of penalyzing suboptimal choices, in part, because I came to roleplaying from the wargaming side of things, I tend to over analyze tactics. This intimidates some players (and GMs) who are not tactically inclined. This can create paralysis in those players and for me Star Wars should be a fast moving game, much like the movies not a game of Squad Leader. Therefore I want to encourage fast decision making in the players when I GM and in myself when I play.

I find one of the best ways to do this is to try for the tone in the films. The characters don't have perfect tactical plans (just rewatch the action on the first Death Star), but the action moves fast, is exciting, and occasionally funny. As long as my players are selecting actions that are fast, exciting, occasionally funny and are true to their character's skills, background, and personality I don't find those to be "stupid" actions. And if the action advances the plot, even better. Very Happy

Personally, I've had a lot of fun roleplaying a brash, tactically unsophisticated character. I spend more brain power thinking about how my character would approach the action rather than trying for a tactically perfect plan. Heck, sometimes I know the plan is pretty lame, but that's the plan the character would enact. But again, this only works because the GM isn't out to penalize the players or kill my PC at the first sign of suboptimal tactics.

I'm not saying this works for every game. If the GM and the players want to run a gritty, tough campaign where a single mistake or flawed tactic gets someone killed, that's fine for them. Heck, that's how half of our D&D campaigns played back in the day, complete with interparty backstabbing and scheming. One DM and I ran campaigns with a style which I believe was referred to as Doom & Despair. Wink If PCs made it above 4th level that was quite impressive. In years of high school/college play I don't think any of the players made it above 7th level in my campaign.

But today, for Star Wars, I prefer a different style.


I usually have a mix of rash and tactical players. This sometimes lead to hilarious situations as one character wants to drive up to the bad guys in the skiff the characters are driving and just blast away, while the other characters try to stop them...lots of fun for those around them.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd probabily call myself close to gritty but fair.
Even if a rule may not let it pass, i will listen to why you should be allowed (and if convinced what roll to make).. if you get the chance but fail (dice rolled too low), at least you had the chance.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I'd probabily call myself close to gritty but fair.
Even if a rule may not let it pass, i will listen to why you should be allowed (and if convinced what roll to make).. if you get the chance but fail (dice rolled too low), at least you had the chance.

Gritty, but fair sounds about right from what I've read here.

How much of "gritty but fair" is your base GM style and how much is influenced by the shared universe, PCs, & GMs of Sparks?
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