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worfbacca
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2023 11:13 pm    Post subject: Hyperlanes Reply with quote

Anyone ever come across cannon or semi-cannon information on the different types of Hyperlanes and the possible speed bump it gives for a major, standard and minor hyper route?
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as the 6 movies go (or 9, depending on your opinions) there is no dialogue about hyperlanes. The closest is the opening crawl of Phantom Menace talking about trade routes.

If you look at Wookieepedia for Hyperlanes, you find that most of the source material is books or rpgs. And even those are just mentions of them.

I think the current concepts of hyperlanes, how they work, how fast, etc. are all the domain of rpgs only. Meaning they can be changed or clarified whenever LFL feels like it.
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pakman
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My friends and I have a great quote regarding this topic and official sources (movies and tv shows);

"Hyperspace works at the speed of plot".

The various rpg books are your best source regarding long distance.

Shorter hopes in most modules are exceptionally long comparatively (sometimes going across a sector is slower than going across the galaxy almost).

For out game - we use ratios for the times and maps.

Major Trade Route - 1/2 time.
Minor Trade Route - 1x time
Local trade route - 2x time
unofficial route - 4x time.

For a baseline - decide how long you think it should take to go along a major trade route (the Rimma trade route, corellian run, etc.).

As a side note - if times are too long - then the galaxy will feel a lot bigger - and the responsiveness of the movies is less plausible.

If the times are too short - then while some movie logic works - it would wreck a lot of concepts on warfare, trade, etc.

beat of luck in what ever you decide.
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For internal consistency, I've adopted the following, based on the 1e Astrogation charts and using the Essentials Galaxy map:

Major Trade Route: One of the big 5 routes (Perlemian, Hydian, Correlian Run, Correlian Spine, and Rimma). Worlds on one of these have a base travel time of 3 hours.

Commonly Traveled Routes: One of the hundred or so routes listed on the map, such as Koda Spur, Triellus Trade Route, Gamor Run, etc. Worlds on one of these have a base travel time of 7 hours.

Lightly Traveled Routes: One of the thousand un-listed routes on the map. Usually reserved for systems within a sector. Worlds on one of these have a base travel time of 14 hours.

Routes Traveled more than 3 years ago:
These are reserved for uninhabited planets (Hoth, Dagobah) that are not in Wild Space or Unknown Regions. These Worlds have a base travel time of 30 hours.


Never Traveled Routes:
Wild Space or Unknown Regions. These worlds have a travel time of over 30 hours.

The longer travel time between systems is used. Corescant to Alderaan is 7 hours because Alderaan is on a Commonly Traveled Route.

I then treat any hyperspace travel that is within the same square in the map ("Grid C-5") or within the same sector as halving the travel time.

Any travel of 6-12 squares distance doubles the travel time.

Any travel of 12+ squares triples the travel time.

This actually gives you a travel time very close to the Revised 1e rules (where they changed days to hours).
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:24 am    Post subject: Re: Hyperlanes Reply with quote

worfbacca wrote:
Anyone ever come across cannon or semi-cannon information on the different types of Hyperlanes and the possible speed bump it gives for a major, standard and minor hyper route?

Not even semi-canon. For the EU and Disney Canon both, it is actually official Lucasfilm policy that no published travel times are canon.

Hyperspace travel is vaguely thousands of times the speed of light. In the game we deal in travel times only because we don't know the distances or the actual speeds (and we don't need to know them). Hyperdrive multipliers give us ship speeds only relative to each other.

When the 1e SW RPG was created, there were no galactic maps so travel was either straight-line direct, or at best, vague how the systems connected to each other. We had a general hyperspace travel concept that journey durations are based on how well known the course is more than distance. The details are hardly needed for most stories.

This premise was somewhat expanded upon after the galaxy started to be mapped out. Hyperlanes serve to explain seemingly fast cross-galactic journeys: The start and end systems are on or close to major hyperlanes.

But these are general premises used to support general disbelief suspension because this is fiction and in every journey, a ship travels at the speed of plot (as stated above and many times on this site before). Canon even semi-quantifying hyperlane travel time standards would be going in the exact opposite direction that they want to go in (vagueness to allow maximum possible author creative freedom).

Thror and pak give some good ideas if it is important to you to have better definition and internal consistency for your campaign world, but know that with whatever you system you choose, you will likely seem to contradict canon at some point or another. So decide which is more important for you: a more quantified system or never contradicting canon?

For my game, I've embraced the official narrative premise to a large degree. How long it takes to get to a system, at least for most sector-to-sector jumps, is almost never important to the narrative of the adventures. Hyperspace journeys are mostly offscreen.

Regardless of which way you go, there are always things that can come up to change things or explain inconsistencies. Two rogue planets could have collided along a route that greatly lengthened a travel time, but momentum finally clearing most of the debris out of the way could explain a shortening of journey.

This and other varied discussions about hyperspace travel have come up many times here. Below are a couple of the more recent ones:

"Cinematic" hyperspace travel times

Travel Times and the Essential Atlas
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worfbacca
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 12:27 am    Post subject: Hyperlanes Reply with quote

ThrorII wrote:
For internal consistency, I've adopted the following, based on the 1e Astrogation charts and using the Essentials Galaxy map:

Major Trade Route: One of the big 5 routes (Perlemian, Hydian, Correlian Run, Correlian Spine, and Rimma). Worlds on one of these have a base travel time of 3 hours.

Commonly Traveled Routes: One of the hundred or so routes listed on the map, such as Koda Spur, Triellus Trade Route, Gamor Run, etc. Worlds on one of these have a base travel time of 7 hours.

Lightly Traveled Routes: One of the thousand un-listed routes on the map. Usually reserved for systems within a sector. Worlds on one of these have a base travel time of 14 hours.

Routes Traveled more than 3 years ago:
These are reserved for uninhabited planets (Hoth, Dagobah) that are not in Wild Space or Unknown Regions. These Worlds have a base travel time of 30 hours.


Never Traveled Routes:
Wild Space or Unknown Regions. These worlds have a travel time of over 30 hours.

The longer travel time between systems is used. Corescant to Alderaan is 7 hours because Alderaan is on a Commonly Traveled Route.

I then treat any hyperspace travel that is within the same square in the map ("Grid C-5") or within the same sector as halving the travel time.

Any travel of 6-12 squares distance doubles the travel time.

Any travel of 12+ squares triples the travel time.

This actually gives you a travel time very close to the Revised 1e rules (where they changed days to hours).


Where are they changed from days to hours in 1st edition. Are you talking about West End Games?
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ThrorII
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2023 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: Hyperlanes Reply with quote

worfbacca wrote:
ThrorII wrote:
snip


Where are they changed from days to hours in 1st edition. Are you talking about West End Games?


It is in the 1989 WEG D6 1.5e Rules Companion, page 17
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Fri May 05, 2023 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Essential Atlas was published in 2009, three years before Disney bought Lucasfilm. It is the best resource I've ever read on hyperspace travel. It's not canon anymore, officially, but most of the information in the book is still used by Disney Lucasfilm.

You can find versions of the maps they used online, like this one that a reddit user keeps updating.


This is the best map I've ever come across. It's interactive and it has hyperspace lanes added on as a filter you can take on and off.

In brief, hyperlanes are (mostly) naturally occurring lanes the galaxy where gravity is weaker so hyperspace travel is faster. The less gravity, the faster you go.

Plotting a course through hyperspace is about cutting down the distance you have to travel by avoiding gravity wells. Gravity pulls ships out of hyperspace. Most people avoid star systems all together to avoid not crashing into a planet or another ship. If you're a great astrogator you can get closer to known gravity wells by more precise calculations and knowing exactly where planets and stars and black holes and other large sources of gravity are. This can shave time off your runs. The stars and planets are in constant motion, so you need to know your stuff.

I had an NPC who sold limited time use hyperspace shortcuts. He was a Givin math prodigy and could calculate routes no one else would take. He sold them to pirate groups as escape routes that allowed them to outrun the authorities after pulling a job. The catch was that they were only good for a week or so because heavenly bodies keep moving.
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PostPosted: Sat May 06, 2023 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
The Essential Atlas was published in 2009, three years before Disney bought Lucasfilm. It is the best resource I've ever read on hyperspace travel. It's not canon anymore, officially, but most of the information in the book is still used by Disney Lucasfilm.

I agree.

Quote:
You can find versions of the maps they used online, like this one that a reddit user keeps updating.

I love it.

Quote:
This is the best map I've ever come across. It's interactive and it has hyperspace lanes added on as a filter you can take on and off.

Very cool. I love the functionality of it. But why do multiple identical galaxies appear side by side when I zoom out to see the entire galaxy? We only need one. I'm afraid something like this uses more resources in my computer than necessary.

Quote:
In brief, hyperlanes are (mostly) naturally occurring lanes...

Traditionally, hyperspace travel was anything but natural. But I guess you refer to purrgils. Did they create all the hyperlanes millions of years ago in Disney Canon?

Quote:
...where gravity is weaker so hyperspace travel is faster. The less gravity, the faster you go.

I couldn't find any reference to this premise in Legends.

Massive objects in realspace have corresponding mass shadows in hyperspace, meaning their gravity wells exist in both dimensions. Ships in hyperspace colliding with mass shadows of realspace objects is much worse than high speed collisions in realspace. Navicomputers keep track of all objects with gravity wells along hyperlanes, both their sizes and movements. Ships have some sort of hyperspace navigational scanners that detect gravity wells that might be in unexpected places along the path of the ship to activate a hyperspace failsafe/cut-off/inhibitor to pull the ship out of hyperspace if needed so there is time to avoid the danger.

So its always been more of a yes/no thing with gravity – you are either a safe distance away or too close to risk it and stop. I haven't seen any gradient description where the more gravity directly means less speed and less gravity directly means more speed.

Quote:
Plotting a course through hyperspace is about cutting down the distance you have to travel by avoiding gravity wells.

Space is mostly empty, so finding the shortest distance between two systems is not the hard part.

Quote:
If you're a great astrogator you can get closer to known gravity wells by more precise calculations and knowing exactly where planets and stars and black holes and other large sources of gravity are... The stars and planets are in constant motion, so you need to know your stuff.

The stars and planets are in constant motion, and for most part traveling predictable paths that the navicomputer can easily keeps track of. Earth physicists with accurate data can easily calculate where any of our planets were, are, or will be at any given time in the past, present, or future; and they can do this with pen, paper, and a calculator. Navicomputers are great because they keep track of all star systems in the Star Wars galaxy, at least the ones that anyone would travel to.

While distance is an undeniable factor for hyperspace travel speeds (especially for longer distances), the primary factor has been described as how well known the course is. If traveling on a high traffic hyperlane, it is well known so the danger is lower and the ship can risk moving faster safely. If traveling on a lower traffic route, it is less known so the danger is higher and the ship can only risk moving slower.

Quote:
I had an NPC who sold limited time use hyperspace shortcuts. He was a Givin math prodigy and could calculate routes no one else would take. He sold them to pirate groups as escape routes that allowed them to outrun the authorities after pulling a job. The catch was that they were only good for a week or so because heavenly bodies keep moving.

I really like the general idea of secret temporary routes that have a window of opportunity to take advantage of and thus valuable enough to sell. I think I'll have to use that.
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always a pleasure to chat with you Whill.

I drew my data from the X-Wing novels when they talk about navigating hyperspace routes, The courtship of Princess Leis for the sentence or two they talk about Jedi being able to use the force to improve hyperspace routes, and mainly from the Essential Atlas. I may have also used some of the Platt's guide stuff. The descriptions of how Bureau of Ship Services (BoSS) works talks about how navi-computers get updates, etc. I use BoSS in all my games, I think it's brilliant and has more verisimilitude than Disney's 'Chain Codes.'

Whill wrote:
Massive objects in realspace have corresponding mass shadows in hyperspace, meaning their gravity wells exist in both dimensions. Ships in hyperspace colliding with mass shadows of realspace objects is much worse than high speed collisions in realspace. Navicomputers keep track of all objects with gravity wells along hyperlanes, both their sizes and movements. Ships have some sort of hyperspace navigational scanners that detect gravity wells that might be in unexpected places along the path of the ship to activate a hyperspace failsafe/cut-off/inhibitor to pull the ship out of hyperspace if needed so there is time to avoid the danger.


100% agreed

Quote:
So its always been more of a yes/no thing with gravity – you are either a safe distance away or too close to risk it and stop. I haven't seen any gradient description where the more gravity directly means less speed and less gravity directly means more speed.


The Essential Atlas is the first place I remember reading about hyperspace eddies, which makes it difficult to get to the western side of the galaxy, as well as the major hyperspace lanes being considerably faster to travel on then cutting across them. They talked about how it can be faster to zip up a hyperspace 'highway' to some place like Corellia and then down from Corellia along a different 'highway' than it would be to go in a straight line. It's been a few years since I've read through it though. More than a few really. I may be wrong about this. If so, I apologize.

I agree that astrogating hyper-routes through star systems (As opposed to just going around them) is possible if you have all the data. My position, which I got from the Wraith Squadron books when they got hit by the Empion mines, is that it takes more precise calculations to shave more time off your runs. You have to know the gravity/mass of your ship, the gravity mass of the tar and all it's planets as well as their precise locations. Most pilots in Star Wars use their navicomputer's suggestion, I'm going to compare it to GPS (Global Positioning System) like Google Maps. In Real Life I've found faster routes than Google by knowing the area better. Translating back to Star Wars, a great astrogator can shave time off the navicomputer suggested route by traveling through star systems instead of going the long way around. It's a more complicated route and what works this week may only work because of the precise distance between Saturn and Jupiter. Or maybe the system you want to travel through has an asteroid/kuiper belt. As an astrogator you need to know where everyone of those rocks or ice balls are. Slamming into a trans-neptunian object at hyperspeeds would ruin your second breakfast.

Also, in Legends you cannot turn in hyperspace. You go in a straight line. So if you know someone's exit vector you can extrapolate which star systems along that route that they might be going to. This is first mentioned in the Zahn trilogy, but is constantly used in the EU before Disney. One of the ways to beat this, if you're a very difficult to heroic astrogator, is to drop out of hyperspace early, get your bearings and calculate a new hyperspace route in an entirely new direction. Getting your bearings in the middle of dead space is very difficult. With the way BoSS works your computer isn't starting from a known location, like a planet that's part of the BoSS network, but is going to be trying to determine it's position from star maps. I treated this as a very difficult roll as a GM, usually on the high side of very difficult. However, if you pull it off, no one can track you. So if you're running from the Empire, Sector Rangers, a Jedi, or pirates, it is a brilliant way to ditch them. If you can pull it off.

Quote:
I really like the general idea of secret temporary routes that have a window of opportunity to take advantage of and thus valuable enough to sell. I think I'll have to use that.


That, sir, is a high compliment. Thank you.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That’s part of what I was going for in the Obstacles in Hyperspace topic, trying to justify why routes might lose integrity relatively quickly, even though real space is mostly empty and takes thousands or millions of years to move any appreciable distance (on a galactic scale, at least). Since hyperspace is the unknown factor, it’s a lot easier to insert the obstacles and other reasons for rapid route degradation there.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Always a pleasure to chat with you Whill.

It's always a pleasure to chat with pleasant people!

Quote:
The Essential Atlas is the first place I remember reading about hyperspace eddies, which makes it difficult to get to the western side of the galaxy, as well as the major hyperspace lanes being considerably faster to travel on then cutting across them. They talked about how it can be faster to zip up a hyperspace 'highway' to some place like Corellia and then down from Corellia along a different 'highway' than it would be to go in a straight line. It's been a few years since I've read through it though. More than a few really. I may be wrong about this. If so, I apologize.

I believe you are referring to the western barrier separating the western galaxy from the rest of it. Some believed it contained "hyperspatial gravitic ripples" which caused hyperspace turbulence. It was largely impenetrable to conventional hyperspace mapping attempts by the Old Republic. The purpose of it is to explain why the Republic had never expanded into the western galaxy. My read is that it had the effect of making passage impossible is some places and more difficult in others, not that gravity there directly slowed down ships in hyperspace.

Of course, more difficult astrogation does have the indirect effect of slowing ships down in our game system because astrogators have to add time to the journeys to make the difficulties more reasonable. From an economic standpoint, I can see these slow-downs and restricted passageways making exploring the western regions not worth the trouble.

Quote:
I agree that astrogating hyper-routes through star systems (As opposed to just going around them) is possible if you have all the data. My position, which I got from the Wraith Squadron books when they got hit by the Empion mines, is that it takes more precise calculations to shave more time off your runs. You have to know the gravity/mass of your ship, the gravity mass of the tar and all it's planets as well as their precise locations. Most pilots in Star Wars use their navicomputer's suggestion, I'm going to compare it to GPS (Global Positioning System) like Google Maps. In Real Life I've found faster routes than Google by knowing the area better. Translating back to Star Wars, a great astrogator can shave time off the navicomputer suggested route by traveling through star systems instead of going the long way around. It's a more complicated route and what works this week may only work because of the precise distance between Saturn and Jupiter. Or maybe the system you want to travel through has an asteroid/kuiper belt. As an astrogator you need to know where everyone of those rocks or ice balls are. Slamming into a trans-neptunian object at hyperspeeds would ruin your second breakfast.

This could very well be a good possible explanation for what is happening in the game's astrogation rule of shaving off hours by adding to the difficulty. You are starting with a known route as a basis, then making alterations that add risk but save time.

It seems you are expanding upon that premise by having the altered route become a new route that is a lower difficulty for others once forged, even though it may only be good with that lower difficulty temporarily before becoming more difficult again. Interesting idea.

Quote:
Also, in Legends you cannot turn in hyperspace. You go in a straight line.

In nature, nothing moves in a straight line; orbits are curved. Systems near each other could certainly have hyperspace journeys that are straight lines through hyperspace, but the maps of hyperspace routes show that they are anything from straight. I doubt you mean that hyperspace journeys are actually a bunch of stops and restarts to change direction.

If you mean that once a course is laid in and the journey begins, the journey may involve some pre-programed turns but you can't change course to a new destination mid-journey without dropping out of hyperspace and calculating a new course, that makes more sense. But according to fluff on R&E p.117, it's "virtually suicidal" to change course mid-journey without dropping out of hyperspace, which means there must be some chance of succeeding, however infinitesimal.

Quote:
So if you know someone's exit vector you can extrapolate which star systems along that route that they might be going to. This is first mentioned in the Zahn trilogy, but is constantly used in the EU before Disney.

Zahn may have expanded upon it, but this existed in TESB:

VADER: Calculate every possible destination along their last known trajectory.
PIETT: Yes, my Lord. We'll find them.

How to implement this in the game has been much debated here.

Quote:
One of the ways to beat this, if you're a very difficult to heroic astrogator, is to drop out of hyperspace early, get your bearings and calculate a new hyperspace route in an entirely new direction. Getting your bearings in the middle of dead space is very difficult. With the way BoSS works your computer isn't starting from a known location, like a planet that's part of the BoSS network, but is going to be trying to determine it's position from star maps. I treated this as a very difficult roll as a GM, usually on the high side of very difficult. However, if you pull it off, no one can track you. So if you're running from the Empire, Sector Rangers, a Jedi, or pirates, it is a brilliant way to ditch them. If you can pull it off.

Calculating a new route from an unknown location existed in the 1e game (the basis for the EU). The astrogation difficulty was "30+".
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PostPosted: Sun May 07, 2023 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Quote:
I had an NPC who sold limited time use hyperspace shortcuts. He was a Givin math prodigy and could calculate routes no one else would take. He sold them to pirate groups as escape routes that allowed them to outrun the authorities after pulling a job. The catch was that they were only good for a week or so because heavenly bodies keep moving.

I really like the general idea of secret temporary routes that have a window of opportunity to take advantage of and thus valuable enough to sell. I think I'll have to use that.


That sounds like a cool idea. Consider it yoinked as well.

Krytoss wrote:
Also, in Legends you cannot turn in hyperspace. You go in a straight line. So if you know someone's exit vector you can extrapolate which star systems along that route that they might be going to. This is first mentioned in the Zahn trilogy, but is constantly used in the EU before Disney. One of the ways to beat this, if you're a very difficult to heroic astrogator, is to drop out of hyperspace early, get your bearings and calculate a new hyperspace route in an entirely new direction. Getting your bearings in the middle of dead space is very difficult. With the way BoSS works your computer isn't starting from a known location, like a planet that's part of the BoSS network, but is going to be trying to determine it's position from star maps. I treated this as a very difficult roll as a GM, usually on the high side of very difficult. However, if you pull it off, no one can track you. So if you're running from the Empire, Sector Rangers, a Jedi, or pirates, it is a brilliant way to ditch them. If you can pull it off.


I have seen some who do it the other way.. Stay in hyperspace 1-2 hrs longer..
BUT agreed pulling out of hyperspace early, then replotting a course, and going in a different direction, is the best way to avoid being tracked.
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2023 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Zahn may have expanded upon it, but this existed in TESB:

VADER: Calculate every possible destination along their last known trajectory.
PIETT: Yes, my Lord. We'll find them.

How to implement this in the game has been much debated here.


I'm disappointed in myself. I forgot that quote. I may have to re-watch the original trilogy. I'm not really much of a Star Wars fan anymore. Without getting into it too much, the new stuff just isn't my thing. But the original trilogy is great, and I don't want to forget how much I enjoyed it.

Thanks Whill.


garhkal wrote:
Whill wrote:
Kytross wrote:
I had an NPC who sold limited time use hyperspace shortcuts. He was a Givin math prodigy and could calculate routes no one else would take. He sold them to pirate groups as escape routes that allowed them to outrun the authorities after pulling a job. The catch was that they were only good for a week or so because heavenly bodies keep moving.


I really like the general idea of secret temporary routes that have a window of opportunity to take advantage of and thus valuable enough to sell. I think I'll have to use that.


That sounds like a cool idea. Consider it yoinked as well.


This is so popular I think I'm going to post up a an NPC in the character section for all y'all to use. I'll check my GM notes but I have a feeling I'm going to have to recreate it. Maybe call it Outlaw Astrogator.
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