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ForbinProject
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 Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | The galaxy is a finite place. The number of Imperial citizens is likewise finite. The number of people involved in Imperial infrastructure is going to be a smaller number than that. Not all worlds in the galaxy have even been mapped and catalogued by the Imperial Survey Corps, never mind settled and exploited.
The Empire might have been hugely wealthy beyond even what we Earthly humans can imagine here on our lone world, but by definition, it couldn't have been of infinite wealth and means. And I don't think it was so wealthy that it was practically of infinite wealth either. I doubt the Rebellion would have even been formed, never mind succeeded, if the Empire had that much power. Rogue One shows us that the Rebellion was this close to ending before it even won its first victory at Scarif even without the idea that the Empire had infinite wealth and power. The Empire was already so powerful that opposing it seemed to be a fool's errand. If it really had been infinitely powerful, no one would have been crazy enough to oppose it. |
TBH IMO I think strip mining 1 Earth size planet of its resources would pay for the construction of either of the Death Stars.
I know the wookipedia lists both Death Stars as costing over 1 trillion but I figure the first DS costs at least 500 trillion and the second 2.5 quadrillion, and it wouldn't take much to convince me to up those estimates by a multiplier of 10. |
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Error
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | Error wrote: | | ...In most sectors, however, there is an occasional need to deliver high firepower at great distance, hence the ships I am envisioning to fill that role in the "assault" department. I have no idea if that describes an extant ship or if I am just going to end up using modified Z-95 Headhunters designed to pop in from hyperspace, drop bombs at close range, and skedaddle. (I'm not opposed to that.) |
Wait, does this mean you envisioned the Empire using Z-95s for hit-and-fade tactics? AFAIK, I've never seen the Empire use or purchase Z-95s anywhere. All the sources I've seen say that the Z-95 is used only by the Rebel Alliance and independent factions; I've never seen the Empire use Z-95s at all. (Of course, this is your SWU.)
But if you want an Imperial fighter capable of hit-and-fade tactics, I suggest the Assault Gunboat. Hell, it was even specifically designed for hit-and-run tactics as it was constructed to counter the X-Wing and its usefulness for hit-and-fade tactics. Granted, the Gunboat is more of a space superiority fighter, but it does have a not-insignificant proton missile payload that can be swapped out with other projectile weapons like space bombs for assault missions. Not to mention its ion cannons for capture missions as well. |
I actually have NO idea who used Z-95's throughout the roughly 20+ years of Imperial galactic dominance. It was an example. I do know that all the stuff used by the Republic during the Clone Wars wasn't immediately junked when the Empire took power, for example Venator-class ships and Y-Wings. So maybe some of the CW fighters (U-Wings, the pseudo-X-Wing things, early Y-Wings and others) would still have been property of the Galactic Republic's "Grand Army of the Republic" and would be the property of the Empire after it was fiated by Palpatine. Until the TIE line was developed, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of the Clone Wars craft still seeing extensive deployment simply because replacing an entire navy is costly and would take years. Of course that is not exactly Z-95's but you take my meaning.
I am all ears if folks know of extant fighter designs the Empire would have been likely to use between 15-5 BBY. I need space superiority designs they're likely to use, and I'm thinking something equivalent to a Y-Wing (or even actual early Y-Wings in the earlier part of that time range, see above) for the extra assault ships on some Lodestar craft.
But like I said, I'm all ears (eyes? I'm all eyes.)
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | ...while working up new stats for the Executor based on its film length. |
CRM, you don't find the stats for the 19km Executor-class at The Shipyard sufficient for your purposes? |
They're a good starting point, but under my scale system, Destroyer and Capital Ship scale vessels would include weaponry of multiple scales, much like a battleship; large numbers of anti-aircraft weaponry, a lot of secondary cannon, and a few much larger cannon as their main weaponry.
The stats on the Shipyard have all ships at WEG's Capital Ship Scale, and all of their weapons are either Capital or Starfighter Scale. Splitting Capital into three different scales requires making changes to the weapon stats as well.
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Error
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Sutehp wrote: | | CRMcNeill wrote: | | ...while working up new stats for the Executor based on its film length. |
CRM, you don't find the stats for the 19km Executor-class at The Shipyard sufficient for your purposes? |
They're a good starting point, but under my scale system, Destroyer and Capital Ship scale vessels would include weaponry of multiple scales, much like a battleship; large numbers of anti-aircraft weaponry, a lot of secondary cannon, and a few much larger cannon as their main weaponry.
The stats on the Shipyard have all ships at WEG's Capital Ship Scale, and all of their weapons are either Capital or Starfighter Scale. Splitting Capital into three different scales requires making changes to the weapon stats as well. |
What is the best energy weapon against other capital ships? Large batteries of heavy turbolasers? Heavy Ion Cannons? I want to know so I can revisit Lodestar's weaponry if needed to tilt it further toward destruction or incapacitation rather than being tilted toward mid-range stuff.
Also, does the weaponry seem appropriate for a 6.2 km ship of this type and role? I wish the ship to be "heavily armed" for its size and class. Or maybe...could someone link me to a D6 conversion of a similar craft (like Bellator for example), so I might draw my own conclusions?
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Error
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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Just an FYI, I redid the Capsule area a bit to read easier and to better explain how the ship relates to other ships in its group. I felt this needed to be detailed a bit better, so the Lodestar's role in a sector fleet could be better defined, so I expanded that part a little. I added a special "electromagnetically-driven" fighter launch system which can spit out four fighters every two seconds from the two aft bays. I went into greater detail about why the main docking bay was so large.
I also named a few more for the heck of it. I added 12 long-range scout ships and 12 personnel carriers and reduced the miscellaneous combat and support ships from a value of 60-80 to 40-80. I also added: [depends on configuration] at the end to explain it a little better.
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Last edited by Error on Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sutehp
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | I am all ears if folks know of extant fighter designs the Empire would have been likely to use between 15-5 BBY. I need space superiority designs they're likely to use, and I'm thinking something equivalent to a Y-Wing (or even actual early Y-Wings in the earlier part of that time range, see above) for the extra assault ships on some Lodestar craft.
But like I said, I'm all ears (eyes? I'm all eyes.) |
We know that the Empire used V-Wings at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Hell, they even sound like TIE fighters, so there was very likely a short transition between V-Wing deployment and the first TIEs. And I can see the Empire using Y-Wings for a short time until the TIE Bomber was produced. I don't think you need any interim fighters; I can see the Empire bringing TIEs (both TIE/ln and Bombers) online almost immediately after ROTS.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | | Just an FYI, I redid the Capsule area a bit to read easier and to better explain how the ship relates to other ships in its group. I felt this needed to be detailed a bit better, so the Lodestar's role in a sector fleet could be better defined, so I expanded that part a little. I added a special "electromagnetically-driven" fighter launch system which can spit out four fighters every two seconds in the two aft bays. I went into greater detail about why the main docking bay was so large. |
This may be too much detail. We have no idea to what degree technology has advanced, and in a universe that has pretty well mastered gravity manipulation, an EM-based launch system might be hopelessly antiquated. And without a specific rule for how rapidly fighters may be launched from capital ships, as well as a special rule in this stat for how the ship to have a quicker launch time, it's just fluff. Note, for example, in Rogue One, how quickly the gate station launched that massive flood of TIEs.
| Quote: | | I also named a few more for the heck of it. I added 12 long-range scout ships and 12 personnel carriers and reduced the miscellaneous combat and support ships from a value of 60-80 to 40-80. I also added: [depends on configuration] at the end to explain it a little better. |
In some ways, it's better to be vague about actual small craft complements. That makes it easier for GMs to assign the appropriate small craft needed for their campaigns. Need the Star Dreadnought to have a long range scout ship or freighter? Just say it has one. After all, there is nothing in the official stats to say otherwise.
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CRMcNeill
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | What is the best energy weapon against other capital ships? Large batteries of heavy turbolasers? Heavy Ion Cannons? I want to know so I can revisit Lodestar's weaponry if needed to tilt it further toward destruction or incapacitation rather than being tilted toward mid-range stuff.
Also, does the weaponry seem appropriate for a 6.2 km ship of this type and role? I wish the ship to be "heavily armed" for its size and class. Or maybe...could someone link me to a D6 conversion of a similar craft (like Bellator for example), so I might draw my own conclusions? |
As far as the RAW, peak damage inflicted is going to be heavily dependent on the coordination bonus derived from massed weapons' fire. I would recommend using whichever coordination bonus chart you prefer to generate peak coordination bonus for each fire arc for each weapon type.
I'm partial to my own version of the Coordination Bonus system, which uses a "x2 = +1D" progression, for reasons described in the link. Using that method for an ISD I, for example:With 60 Turbolaser Batteries, split evenly between the Front, Left and Right Fire Arcs, the weapons in each arc get a coordination bonus of +4D, which can be allocated to Damage or Fire Control, depending on the preference of the ship's captain.
So, at maximum damage, an ISD I can inflict up to 9D Capital-Scale damage (on the WEG 2R&E Scale System) to any one target in its Front, Left and Right Fire Arcs.
My capital ship conversions are largely on hold at the moment while I sort out the details of how my scale system affects weapon damage and range.
Under the stats I'm envisioning, around 90-95% of Capital Ship-Scale weapons will be moved down to Frigate Scale, with only the bigger, Destroyer-Scale ships getting heavier, Destroyer-Scale weaponry. Work in progress.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Error
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Error wrote: | | Just an FYI, I redid the Capsule area a bit to read easier and to better explain how the ship relates to other ships in its group. I felt this needed to be detailed a bit better, so the Lodestar's role in a sector fleet could be better defined, so I expanded that part a little. I added a special "electromagnetically-driven" fighter launch system which can spit out four fighters every two seconds in the two aft bays. I went into greater detail about why the main docking bay was so large. |
This may be too much detail. We have no idea to what degree technology has advanced, and in a universe that has pretty well mastered gravity manipulation, an EM-based launch system might be hopelessly antiquated. And without a specific rule for how rapidly fighters may be launched from capital ships, as well as a special rule in this stat for how the ship to have a quicker launch time, it's just fluff. Note, for example, in Rogue One, how quickly the gate station launched that massive flood of TIEs.
| Quote: | | I also named a few more for the heck of it. I added 12 long-range scout ships and 12 personnel carriers and reduced the miscellaneous combat and support ships from a value of 60-80 to 40-80. I also added: [depends on configuration] at the end to explain it a little better. |
In some ways, it's better to be vague about actual small craft complements. That makes it easier for GMs to assign the appropriate small craft needed for their campaigns. Need the Star Dreadnought to have a long range scout ship or freighter? Just say it has one. After all, there is nothing in the official stats to say otherwise. |
Good points. I'll remove the fluff and just say it can deploy its complement of starfighters in under a minute.
Thank you for the insight on "leaving it vague". I kinda had the same idea myself. Also, the Wookieepedia article on TIE/ln says they were introduced in 19 BBY. The only info on TIE/sa is "Rise of the Empire Era" so we can assume it came to be shortly after the TIE/ln. TIE/IN was introduced 3 BBY, two years after the scrapping of this class, and TIE/ad was introduced all the way in 3 ABY. So I believe the basic TIE/ln (and other contemporaneous TIE lines [if they exist]) would have proliferated significantly by the time Lodestar-class craft were launched, and would likely be its main short-range fighter, with other craft like V-Wings, V-19 Torrent, ARC-170's, or other differently-configured TIE series craft retained for different kinds of adversaries or mission profiles. However, I don't see a lot for TIE models from that era besides TIE/ln. But I completely agree to leave it vague.
EDIT: Anyone have any idea where I should start looking to see which TIE craft were available in 15-5 BBY?
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Last edited by Error on Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:51 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Error
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Error wrote: | What is the best energy weapon against other capital ships? Large batteries of heavy turbolasers? Heavy Ion Cannons? I want to know so I can revisit Lodestar's weaponry if needed to tilt it further toward destruction or incapacitation rather than being tilted toward mid-range stuff.
Also, does the weaponry seem appropriate for a 6.2 km ship of this type and role? I wish the ship to be "heavily armed" for its size and class. Or maybe...could someone link me to a D6 conversion of a similar craft (like Bellator for example), so I might draw my own conclusions? |
As far as the RAW, peak damage inflicted is going to be heavily dependent on the coordination bonus derived from massed weapons' fire. I would recommend using whichever coordination bonus chart you prefer to generate peak coordination bonus for each fire arc for each weapon type.
I'm partial to my own version of the Coordination Bonus system, which uses a "x2 = +1D" progression, for reasons described in the link. Using that method for an ISD I, for example:With 60 Turbolaser Batteries, split evenly between the Front, Left and Right Fire Arcs, the weapons in each arc get a coordination bonus of +4D, which can be allocated to Damage or Fire Control, depending on the preference of the ship's captain.
So, at maximum damage, an ISD I can inflict up to 9D Capital-Scale damage (on the WEG 2R&E Scale System) to any one target in its Front, Left and Right Fire Arcs.
My capital ship conversions are largely on hold at the moment while I sort out the details of how my scale system affects weapon damage and range.
Under the stats I'm envisioning, around 90-95% of Capital Ship-Scale weapons will be moved down to Frigate Scale, with only the bigger, Destroyer-Scale ships getting heavier, Destroyer-Scale weaponry. Work in progress. |
I understand. I'm eager to see your thoughts on "the big guns". It always struck me as odd that an ISD could have heavy turbolasers, but the Death Star had the same thing on its surface? I would assume much, much larger cannons. Not that that would help against the group of snub fighters they seem to always die to... I also recall the scene in early in RotS during the opening capital ship battle where clone troopers can be seen loading very large guns and firing them. I'm like...those look bigger than turbolasers.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | | I'm eager to see your thoughts on "the big guns". It always struck me as odd that an ISD could have heavy turbolasers, but the Death Star had the same thing on its surface? I would assume much, much larger cannons. Not that that would help against the group of snub fighters they seem to always die to... I also recall the scene in early in RotS during the opening capital ship battle where clone troopers can be seen loading very large guns and firing them. I'm like...those look bigger than turbolasers. |
Technically speaking, the Death Star needs a re-stat as well, as the ranges for its surface weaponry are pathetically low compared to similar weaponry found on Capital Ships. WEG's stats are disjointed almost to the point of schizophrenia, which is my main motivation for re-doing so many of them. The problem is that the number of house rules I want to include are going to require re-writes of almost all of my previously posted stats...
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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Error
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Sutehp wrote: | | Error wrote: | I am all ears if folks know of extant fighter designs the Empire would have been likely to use between 15-5 BBY. I need space superiority designs they're likely to use, and I'm thinking something equivalent to a Y-Wing (or even actual early Y-Wings in the earlier part of that time range, see above) for the extra assault ships on some Lodestar craft.
But like I said, I'm all ears (eyes? I'm all eyes.) |
We know that the Empire used V-Wings at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Hell, they even sound like TIE fighters, so there was very likely a short transition between V-Wing deployment and the first TIEs. And I can see the Empire using Y-Wings for a short time until the TIE Bomber was produced. I don't think you need any interim fighters; I can see the Empire bringing TIEs (both TIE/ln and Bombers) online almost immediately after ROTS. |
It does look like that during the Clone Wars, Z-95 Headhunters were used as late as the show's sixth season by the Republic Navy. It stands to reason then that they would not have all been phased out at once when the Emperor took power, but would have over a period of years. The Republic's extant starfighters—including ARC-170's, V-Wings, Z-95's and V-19 Torrents—would have had to remain functional, at least as long as it took Seinar Fleet Systems to engineer the early TIE series and build production facilities for them. It would be near the end of that time that the Empire would likely auction off all TIE predecessors to raise funds for the newer craft, with the result being that private navies and individuals would have access to Z-95's as is depicted in the EU. However, I have no doubt that all the Z-95's belonging to the Empire would have been long gone—replaced by ships of the TIE series, mostly—by the time any Lodestar-class craft would have been commissioned. That said, I would not be surprised to see Z-95's (along with ARC-170's, V-Wings, and V-19's) in the starfighter complements of the Empire's capital ships from the end of the Clone Wars until 17-16 BBY at the latest.
Check this out. Z-95's at the battle of Cato Nemoidia.
EDIT: Something I just thought of was this...how did Obi-Wan Kenobi know in Episode IV that:
LUKE
It followed us!
BEN
No. It's a short range fighter.
HAN
There aren't any bases around here. Where did it come from?
Had Kenobi seen TIE/ln before? Perhaps he saw them at some point during his exile? Was there a time period between their introduction and his going into hiding? (No, I think they were introduced concurrently with the Empire, and he went into hiding right then.) It seems there's a good chance they are older than 19 BBY if none of this can be explained.
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Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Whill wrote: | | Most of the time, an ISD in my game means 'Go the other way' or 'Escape now while you can.' These bigger ships are just in the background meant to inspire awe and fear. |
This, IMO, is the core issue. We may bat around ideas and come up with stats and argue the accurate length of some vessels over others, but in the end, what group of PCs will ever actually take on one of the monsters in ship-to-ship combat directly? |
Exactly. I'm just enough of a nerd to want to have it set which EU ships exist in my SWU and what their sizes are, and which don't exist. It doesn't mean their stats would likely ever be relevant in my game.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | As I mentioned above, my approach would be to throw out WEG's Super-Class and apply its stats (with some modification) to fractalsponge's Bellator-Class, while working up new stats for the Executor based on its film length. If I needed stats for an interim sized ship in the ~12 kilometer range, I'd go with fractalsponge's Assertor-Class |
Excellent suggestions. That fractal sponge stuff is sharp. I guess the Bellator-class would be a better visual for the Superior-class than WEG's relatively simple artwork of the Executor with a truncated aft.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | Technically speaking, the Death Star needs a re-stat as well, as the ranges for its surface weaponry are pathetically low compared to similarly weaponry found on Capital Ships. WEG's stats are disjointed almost to the point of schizophrenia |
Thank you! I don't get why some people venerate WEG stats as the inviolable word of God. It's obvious to me there was no overall stat editor or any effort made to achieve any sort of consistency. It was just a large group of various contracted writers each submitting their own things, some of whom may not have even had any love of the game so were just completing a job assignment for a paycheck. Your stats have consistency WEG never could.
| CRMcNeill wrote: | | WEG's stats are disjointed almost to the point of schizophrenia, which is my main motivation for re-doing so many of them. The problem is that the number of house rules I want to include are going to require re-writes of almost all of my previously posted stats. |
And we very much appreciate your efforts! Thank you!
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Error
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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^ +1 to this m8
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Whill
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Error wrote: | Something I just thought of was this...how did Obi-Wan Kenobi know in Episode IV that:
LUKE
It followed us!
BEN
No. It's a short range fighter.
HAN
There aren't any bases around here. Where did it come from? |
TIE History
| Quote: | | Following the transformation of the Galactic Republic into the authoritarian Galactic Empire, Republic era weapons and equipment would continue to be utilized throughout the Imperial sphere. As time went by, the Republic's Eta-2 Actis-class light interceptor and ARC-170 starfighters began to be phased out roughly five years after the proclamation of the New Order. It's replacement, the TIE/ln starfighter would retain similarities to the old craft, with Sienar Fleet Systems having borrowed heavily from the designs of Kuat Systems Engineering ships, thanks to acquiring key assets and engineers employed by their competitor. |
From that, TIEs were introduced around 14 BBY.
| Error wrote: | | Had Kenobi seen TIE/ln before? Perhaps he saw them at some point during his exile? Was there a time period between their introduction and his going into hiding? (No, I think they were introduced concurrently with the Empire, and he went into hiding right then.) It seems there's a good chance they are older than 19 BBY if none of this can be explained. |
Obi-Wan knew that Vader had survived being left for dead on Mustafar. Tatooine may be the planet farthest from the bright center of the universe, but they do still have the holonet and get news from the galaxy, so Obi-Wan had ways to find out things about the universe in his exile. He had to go buy parts for moisture vaporators and other supplies so he would have went into town sometimes. And maybe he did leave the planet and return. Also, by the time of ANH, Tatooine is nominally under the control of the Empire so Obi-Wan could have even seen TIE fighters there. Finally, he may have never seen a TIE before but was familiar enough with starfighter technology to tell there was no hyperdrive on the ship, thus making it a "short range" fighter.
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